RO's who cheat
- Thread starter kanada kidd
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Pssh Quigley, I think I know what is and isn't:
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don't show this to vince pinto . he will strongly deny ,even the evidence.
Seriously, though, in our small local group most everyone gets a chance to take score. And on top of that, the shooter has every opportunity to take a look at the timer. You do what you can, and ultimately, you have to trust somebody in the mix. Otherwise you wouldn't be involved in action shooting sports at all.
Dammit!!!
As a dedicated grammar/spelling nazi you don't know how humiliated I feel right now...
I understand why he locked it down, it's a USPSA issue, however one would have to live a in a very special world to believe it hasn't happened in other regions. We've seen people tamper with scores in the stats shack, RO's intimidated by competitors and competitors intimidated by RO's to effect changes in scores. I do not think it is a widespread problem though, and from this point on, it's going to be very very difficult to pull off.
Regarding the shooter getting a zero on a stage due to no time being recorded (and I'm assuming the match being over and stages torn down), this is one reason why I am a big believer in getting Practiscore (or similar if someone can come up with something better) into all matches. What would be even better would be having new timers that synch to the scoring device, once scoring is done the RO can easily confirm the time on the scoring device is the same as the time on the timer. They don't need to be active synchs during the competitors run either, it can happen when the scoring is complete and the two units are close enough together for it to happen. Just imagine, using that kind of tech (which exists) at the end of the match you could synch your device (or during the match I suppose) and go home and analyze everything you did, you'd have lots of your splits (depending on stages and where the RO is but you'd get most of them). You'd know everything about your stage, the score on each target and the time each target took. And you'd know if there was any hinky crap being done by the RO or anyone else.
Regarding the shooter getting a zero on a stage due to no time being recorded (and I'm assuming the match being over and stages torn down), this is one reason why I am a big believer in getting Practiscore (or similar if someone can come up with something better) into all matches. What would be even better would be having new timers that synch to the scoring device, once scoring is done the RO can easily confirm the time on the scoring device is the same as the time on the timer. They don't need to be active synchs during the competitors run either, it can happen when the scoring is complete and the two units are close enough together for it to happen. Just imagine, using that kind of tech (which exists) at the end of the match you could synch your device (or during the match I suppose) and go home and analyze everything you did, you'd have lots of your splits (depending on stages and where the RO is but you'd get most of them). You'd know everything about your stage, the score on each target and the time each target took. And you'd know if there was any hinky crap being done by the RO or anyone else.
As someone that has just started participating in shooting sports,this whole mess is a real bummer to hear. I am glad that all the matches and RO's been great and will keep me coming back for more. I hope this whole mess will show anyone thinking of padding scores or screwing a rival over that they will get caught and possibly flogged.
HB, hadn't heard that, I would hope that the backend of the system would show when and what changes were made so that it would show clearly to the MD and Stats people at the end of a match, but I haven't looked that far into PS to know if that's the case. I know with the database I did for our farm, which tracked hundreds of thousands of data points that I could call up changes going back 5 years and see what the original info was, when the change was made, who made it and the new data. Changing scores after the fact isn't anything new though, I recall a match in PG where this was brought up, and a couple since then, accountability is the key. With PS at least competitors can be kept up to date on what is happening at a match and changes would likely be noticed pretty quickly.
Actually people used Shot Coach app to get stage times from the video footage and compare it with posted match times.
itunes.apple.com/us/app/shot-coach-video-analysis/id605565597?mt=8
Sorry to disappoint you, Rob, but the tech is not there yet. The only existing device is using Bluetooth, which has to be paired and stay within the range in order to stay connected and it is a pain in the butt to get it connected back when it drops off. On top various other connectivity issues, it takes about 1 second per shot to transmit individual split times (according to manufacturer that is the only way to hook it up to apple devices and android link just suffering from that decision), so it will take 30 seconds to get your splits across for a long stage, which is not usable for any practical purposes at the match.
I might be wrong about how the initial cheating was suspected, but I don't think I'm wrong about how PS works. Shot Coach was definitely how the video was tested. Given the revision history of Practiscore and the reasons, I don't think it's quite as sophisticated as we would like with regard to initial data, and tracking changes.
On the plus side, I discovered the iOS app "Shot Coach", which is pretty cool, actually....Except for the fact that when I edit files for length before putting them back into the iPhone, Shot Coach doesn't like working with mp4, which is all MovieMaker really spits out.
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ios app does change tacking since one of the recent releases and coincidentally, it is coming in android app in a next week or so... It wasn't even bumped up because of this RO scandal.
The new version of Practiscore does extensive logging that the match director can monitor for tampering but really this is a volunteer sport so the whole thing is silly. The person entering the score still needs to know the correct time. In MB, just about every RO shows the timer to the person scoring immediately after the run. We don't do this because we need to make sure the RO is doing their job but rather it easier to show someone the time to record and not have to worry about yelling over other bays shooting or having a transcription error when you didn't hear the RO. It also speeds things up as the RO is usually doing the unload and show clear while he turns the timer towards the person scoring.
There are RF timers out there (CED, RUREADY etc) that can broadcast splits and times to a scoreboard or secondary scoring device if that is something people want. I wouldn't call that as solution to people that want to cheat but it does provide a backup and could speed things up further.
The Shotmaxx can time a shooter and is initiated by the movement of the hand but it will still be a few tenths out from the official timer.
There are RF timers out there (CED, RUREADY etc) that can broadcast splits and times to a scoreboard or secondary scoring device if that is something people want. I wouldn't call that as solution to people that want to cheat but it does provide a backup and could speed things up further.
The Shotmaxx can time a shooter and is initiated by the movement of the hand but it will still be a few tenths out from the official timer.
Euxx, good to know about the time it takes to transfer the data, 30 seconds isn't bad, if you could trust it to do the data dump when it had a good connection. That could easily happen during scoring if ROs knew they had to get close together for the scoring or something.
Good to hear about the new update, please please tell me IPSC is a match type now.
Good to hear about the new update, please please tell me IPSC is a match type now.
Replying to my reply. According to a tech geek I talked to, Blutooth should be able to transfer all that data much faster than that, something is wrong there. But regardless, there are solutions to this that could be implemented over the next year. Maybe NiftyBytes should build a shot timer that works as above with PractiScore???
And because I've received a half dozen emails and a number of PMs on the subject, no, I'm not going to name names or go into details about those old matches where things happened, there were things done and people were dealt with as far as I understand it. But there has been, in my opinion, a definite reluctance from MDs/RM's and BOD's to actually go after people for this kind of thing. It causes a black eye is the most common excuse I've heard, or, don't show our dirty laundry is another one. How many people here have seen a competitor try to bully an RO about a call, to the point the CRO or RO is in tears, or the opposite an RO with a chip on their shoulder who decides to quite simply, be a prick to competitors. There is malfeasance on both sides, and I hope this recent action in the USA brings a cleaning to the sport.
And because I've received a half dozen emails and a number of PMs on the subject, no, I'm not going to name names or go into details about those old matches where things happened, there were things done and people were dealt with as far as I understand it. But there has been, in my opinion, a definite reluctance from MDs/RM's and BOD's to actually go after people for this kind of thing. It causes a black eye is the most common excuse I've heard, or, don't show our dirty laundry is another one. How many people here have seen a competitor try to bully an RO about a call, to the point the CRO or RO is in tears, or the opposite an RO with a chip on their shoulder who decides to quite simply, be a prick to competitors. There is malfeasance on both sides, and I hope this recent action in the USA brings a cleaning to the sport.
I have to agree with Slavex, there is bullying on both sides of the timer. Perhaps there should be a code of conduct for each person, who is involved in the match, from the shooter all the way up to the range master (or his equivilant) in the sport you are participating in.
I know there is a code of conduct in IDPA for all people in the sport, from the shooter all the way to the top. Most of the code deals with being a good sportsman/woman, these things we were taught as youngsters.
Just my nickle for what it is worth.
I know there is a code of conduct in IDPA for all people in the sport, from the shooter all the way to the top. Most of the code deals with being a good sportsman/woman, these things we were taught as youngsters.
Just my nickle for what it is worth.
And that's the main issue. Many don't learn about good sportsmanship.. If anything, their parents will teach them to "win win win at any cost". I don't think we need a formalized code. If you're participating in any sport, you should at the bare minimum stick with "DBAA" (Breaking Bad reference ftw). If you break it, the IPSC law book tomes already have provisions on unsportsmanlike conduct.
