ipsc black badge poll/question

[7.62mm]

You drunk again midget?

Really? Midget? Drunk?
It was a simple question!

The BB course is nothing but a feel good exercise, or hoop to jump through for an elitist organization! Decent and competent RO's would solve most, if not all problems with incompetent shooters showing up at a match.....as witnessed by a large percentage of the rest of the World shooting action sports.

IMHO!

 

[beltfed]

I'm not against training - scratch that, I'm not against GOOD training. What I am against is painting all with the same brush.
Every IPSCer has been at a match with a newly minted BBer and has seen them DQ at the start or partially through the day.
That member likely should have had remedial training and/or is flat out not ready mentally for the tasks at hand.
I've shot with some pretty amazing folks who have never shot and have no desire to shoot IPSC, yet have training and skills that makes the BB look like finger painting. Some others who shoot IDPA for example, have minimal training yet take to it like fish to water - why not let those who choose challenge whatever standards you put forward - be it a BB standard or other in-house range course?

 

[colt45gunner]

Really? Midget? Drunk?
It was a simple question!

The BB course is nothing but a feel good exercise, or hoop to jump through for an elitist organization! Decent and competent RO's would solve most, if not all problems with incompetent shooters showing up at a match.....as witnessed by a large percentage of the rest of the World shooting action sports.

IMHO!

I don't doubt some folks will be safe without a course, and no course will eliminate dq's....not in ipsc, as it's too much movement and scenarios pushing the boundaries and very easy to make that mistake...which is mostly finger on trigger while moving, or breaking 90 (which is not holster related offense). But you can't argue that any training is not, at worst case somewhat helpful...how much can be debated as well, but it's helpful.

I believe lots of DQ's happen due to, 1) as previous sentence stated, and 2) due to lack of overall training from their own local clubs program. BB course is helpful, but is an overall course related to ipsc, not just holster use.
I've been at 4 different clubs in my life and only one, really had good club level course and supportive proby training....of which was my first club and thus, I believe I turned out reasonably safe....Have I been DQ'd ? yes, 17 years after my BB course....so eventually anyone can, but good training and good common sense and careful handling habits I've maintained, helped me be safe....

now being DQ'd doesn't mean that one is generally unsafe gun handler, for that one incident.... how someone handles gun on a regular basis will determine that they are safe or not. Lets not confuse DQ at an IPSC match with the generality of unsafe gun handler. These are two different matters.

Some folks are just not good at different things... I'm guessing people with bad habits are likely to have them in other areas of life, like driving or whatever else.
BB is for getting shooters ready for ipsc matches, not to be some national gun safety course to be worshiped. So, I'm not saying its the B all.... but since OP started this, IMHO it's helpful...
I can only image those who get dq'd right after taking the course, how they would be if they never took it ...but for those who have been, it wasn't for their holstering technique
Also, lots of DQ's don't happen due to RO's being easy, or not sure, so don't dq, or not being able to see if shooter has finger where it shouldn't be when they're running....
Back to OP.... as this is not an ipsc topic, but more about holster course..... So, I also think clubs themselves should give there own members a holster course, if they require one for them to use one... and it can be as detailed as they desire, etc..

 

[Madness]

I think we should follow idpa canada's lead and turn the bb course into a 5min safety table lesson.also we should get a nice certificate of completion that we can frame and hang up

 

[Warfarin]

i wouldn't mind getting a black badge but its 2 full days 200 plus dollars and lots of ammo a little to much just to learn a few safety tips . i was watching a black badge corse while i was at the 3 gun match and I'm sere they can do it in one day charge 100 bucks and us 100 rounds and still teach everything they need to no . id rather spend 1 full day then blow a hole weekend and money and ammo .
all i hear is safety this safety that there really isn't that much to no holstering a gun safely its not rocket science and shouldn't take days and a lot of money to learn.

It is more than just holstering the gun. It is showing you how to also move depending on where you are to keep the gun down range so you don't shoot yourself or somebody else. A lot of repetition builds a ritual for unholster, loading the gun, applying safety or decocking, then holstering without even thinking.

Think about all the people you met in your life and how many don't have common sense (You wonder how they even survived until now). Now give them a gun and a holster and zero training and throw them into a 32 round stage with stairs, corners and being forced to go backwards out of a hallwayish area. Now think of all the bad things that can happen... That is the purpose of the course.

 

[Ducatikid]

It is more than just holstering the gun. It is showing you how to also move depending on where you are to keep the gun down range so you don't shoot yourself or somebody else. A lot of repetition builds a ritual for unholster, loading the gun, applying safety or decocking, then holstering without even thinking.

Think about all the people you met in your life and how many don't have common sense (You wonder how they even survived until now). Now give them a gun and a holster and zero training and throw them into a 32 round stage with stairs, corners and being forced to go backwards out of a hallwayish area. Now think of all the bad things that can happen... That is the purpose of the course.

so it should take 16 hours 260 dollars and hundreds of rounds to learn this ? ive already don multiple matchs with no problems never DQed and now i have to take this course to continue plaining ? i no i would learn something doing the course its just that 2 full days (the weekend i work on saturdays ) hundreds of dollars and the cost of ammo . some one needs to come up with a course to take that would teach you the skills you need to play the game and it should be no more then 4 hours cost no more then 100 bucks and just dry fire the weapon im sure that would give people a good understanding of the safe skills .i watched the guys taking black badge there was a few that looked like they never held a gun in there hands and to think when the day was over these guys will be more qualified they me ? i dont play ipsc so why take a course for something im never going to do thats way there needs to be a different course for these types of games.
just my two cents im just pissed because i wont be playing these types of games anymore just because i dont have a black badge . judge me on what i can do not what course ive takin . lots of people have a drivers licence but cant drive worth of #### so .

 

[dquick]

I'm with DucatiKid on this.

When attending matches, I've learned more from other shooters, RO's and match directors in regards to safety. Not just with holsters, but with transitioning/dumping a firearm, not breaking 90, shoot/reload on move, etc.

If you want to play IPSC, you have to take the Black Badge course. Their rules, I'm cool with that. I'm all for training, but sometimes experience
trumps certification.

But with non-IPSC affiliated action sports: Cowboy, 2-gun, 3-gun, infinity-gun, etc, where a pistol/holster is used - to be IPSC (black badge) as a requirement, is something I disagree with.

However, if it's the range's or match director's rules, so be it. It sucks, but I understand and respect their decision.

 

[Ducatikid]

I'm with DucatiKid on this.

When attending matches, I've learned more from other shooters, RO's and match directors in regards to safety. Not just with holsters, but with transitioning/dumping a firearm, not breaking 90, shoot/reload on move, etc.

If you want to play IPSC, you have to take the Black Badge course. Their rules, I'm cool with that. I'm all for training, but sometimes experience
trumps certification.

But with non-IPSC affiliated action sports: Cowboy, 2-gun, 3-gun, infinity-gun, etc, where a pistol/holster is used - to be IPSC (black badge) as a requirement, is something I disagree with.

However, if it's the range's or match director's rules, so be it. It sucks, but I understand and respect their decision.

i agree if its the rules the so be it. the rule apply to all of us so its fare but it sucks .

 

[Warfarin]

The USPSA style approach would be a better choice, but we are stuck with what we have at the moment.

 

[colt45gunner]

Experience trumps some newbie who just took a course, but it has to be positive experience...and how the heck do I know if your experience is good or bad... ? ?
you joining new club or discipline, and they don't know you, how can they just assume you're the Man ?
I don't have problem with some shorter version being offered for experienced shooters from other similar action shooting, but that would entail match set up and run you thru to see how you handle yourself...which is not bad idea... instead of two long days, just few hours of an actual match set up and few drills to see that you're the king of gun handling...
I'm not averse to other options for people to get holster certified, but there should be something for doing such....

 

[Slavex]

Like I've said numerous times, I'm not 100% sure the BB is needed, however having seen how people who've had dozens of years of gun handling experience in various professional fields handle their guns, I will say the safety aspect of the BB can't be beat. I will also say that I'd rather someone learn that they are commonly breaking 90/180 during a a BB course than have it happen at a match for a variety of reasons.
When you consider the cost of the shooting sports, $250 or more for a 2 day course (that includes a year membership) is cheap really.

 

[Runningfool]

...If you want to play IPSC, you have to take the Black Badge course. Their rules, I'm cool with that. I'm all for training, but sometimes experience
trumps certification.

But with non-IPSC affiliated action sports: Cowboy, 2-gun, 3-gun, infinity-gun, etc, where a pistol/holster is used - to be IPSC (black badge) as a requirement, is something I disagree with.

However, if it's the range's or match director's rules, so be it. It sucks, but I understand and respect their decision.

I agree.

If a shooter has zero interest in IPSC then there is no need for them to spend the extra time and money learning the IPSC rules. I understand what you are saying Slavex, but what value is an included "1 year membership" if a shooter has no interest in IPSC?

It would be great if we had a standardized 1 day holster course for less than $100 with competency exam at the end of the day - that way match RO's and/or ranges could be assured that shooters have been instructed on the basics of safe holster use and have demonstrated competence. If IPSC, IDPA, et al want to have their own specialized courses to allow competitors to join up then so be it but for ranges to only allow IPSC shooters to use holsters like a Black Badge is the gold standard, well that is wrong imo.

 

[7.62mm]

I think we should follow idpa canada's lead and turn the bb course into a 5min safety table lesson.also we should get a nice certificate of completion that we can frame and hang up

You shoot a lot is the US!
How many more people do you see DQ'd in the US due to lack of Black Badge training, then Canadian Matches; or does it have more to do with the quality of the RO'ing, or lack of quality.


I shoot a fair bit in the US, at a variety of different matches....USPSA, 3 gun, shotgun matches etc..and I see no appreciable difference in the quality of shooters. I do see lots of RO's that are unwilling to do their jobs however, in both countries!

 

[Forestsight]

It sounds like a demand for less training that would be provided by the lowest bidder. Black badge courses observed from the outside for an hour or so is not the Black Badge course. Taking the B.B. course was life changing for me and instilled the mindset that safety, a drive to learn and confidence are worth $200+ ammo. Using a holster from the firing line only is like using a map of Acton to explore the galaxy.

 

[667]

I dunno...
Nowhere in the FA does it say ANYTHING about having to be "trained" to use a holster.
You don't need a license to own/use a holster.

This whole "holster certification" idea is perpetrated by the nanny mentality many seem to have.
Obey the four universal laws of gun safety and it shouldn't matter whether your handgun comes off a table or out of a holster.

 

[crash277]

I dunno...
Nowhere in the FA does it say ANYTHING about having to be "trained" to use a holster.
You don't need a license to own/use a holster.

This whole "holster certification" idea is perpetrated by the nanny mentality many seem to have.
Obey the four universal laws of gun safety and it shouldn't matter whether your handgun comes off a table or out of a holster.

Keep your finger off the trigger.
Keep your finger off the trigger.
Keep your finger off the trigger.
And most important.
Keep your finger off the trigger.


My 6yr old know those 4!

 

[7.62mm]

I dunno...
Nowhere in the FA does it say ANYTHING about having to be "trained" to use a holster.
You don't need a license to own/use a holster.

This whole "holster certification" idea is perpetrated by the nanny mentality many seem to have.
Obey the four universal laws of gun safety and it shouldn't matter whether your handgun comes off a table or out of a holster.

"Think of the Children Syndrome" I believe is the term you are looking for!

 

[hungrybeagle]

I agree.

If a shooter has zero interest in IPSC then there is no need for them to spend the extra time and money learning the IPSC rules. I understand what you are saying Slavex, but what value is an included "1 year membership" if a shooter has no interest in IPSC?

It would be great if we had a standardized 1 day holster course for less than $100 with competency exam at the end of the day - that way match RO's and/or ranges could be assured that shooters have been instructed on the basics of safe holster use and have demonstrated competence. If IPSC, IDPA, et al want to have their own specialized courses to allow competitors to join up then so be it but for ranges to only allow IPSC shooters to use holsters like a Black Badge is the gold standard, well that is wrong imo.

I hear what you are saying. It's been a long time, but how much does the PAL or RPAL course cost now? What you are essentially looking for is a nationally recognized extension of the RPAL course that covers safety when there is no designated firing line and how to safely load/reload. Unfortunately I don't see that happening, although it would be so in an idea world.

I think the reason that the BB course has been adopted by so many clubs as certification for holster use and movement is because it's really the only discipline that has a standardized training program. If IDPA had more than a "safety check", more like a full day safety course, it might give club Executive officers an option to the Black Badge. As it stands, if you don't know much about either sports, and somebody says "we can accept the graduates of this 2 day program that had manuals, classroom discussions, tests and a practical component, or we can accept these graduates of a 10 minute show and tell " it's obvious who they are going to trust more.

 

[alpining]

...
If a shooter has zero interest in IPSC then there is no need for them to spend the extra time and money learning the IPSC rules. I understand what you are saying Slavex, but what value is an included "1 year membership" if a shooter has no interest in IPSC?

It would be great if we had a standardized 1 day holster course for less than $100 with competency exam at the end of the day - that way match RO's and/or ranges could be assured that shooters have been instructed on the basics of safe holster use and have demonstrated competence. If IPSC, IDPA, et al want to have their own specialized courses to allow competitors to join up then so be it but for ranges to only allow IPSC shooters to use holsters like a Black Badge is the gold standard, well that is wrong imo.

I don't think you'd find many IPSC shooters who would say that the BB course should be required for participating in anything other than IPSC. IPSC Canada created the BB course for IPSC Canada, and I think most IPSC Canada shooters think that it works very well for their purposes.

For other disciplines? Maybe, I guess. I will say that all things being equal, I'd rather be squadded with someone who has passed the BB course than someone who has not. I can understand why clubs and match organizers would require BB completion for non-IPSC events, simply by virtue of the lack of any other recognized and regulated option.

Having another option makes tons of sense, of course. The trouble is, who in their right mind would want to take responsibility for organizing and regulating it?

 

[Redlight35]

So just for the fun of it, lets think about another option to the BB course.

If you've taken any of the good "Tactical Pistol" courses out there, you know that you are taught how to safely draw, fire and re-holster a pistol in a variety of situations. Although it doesn't include all the rules of IPSC, why doesn't that type of training meet a range's standard for holster use in their ranges?

Not trying to get anyone mad, just asking an honest question. I'm looking to move, and although I have never taken a BB course, I have taken several tactical courses. This is good enough for holster use at my current range, but may not meet the requirements after I move.