s&w model 3 trouble

[bandit86]

I have an antique model 3, supposed to be 44 Russian. I wanted to make some rounds for it today but my cases wiggle in the cylinder. The bore measures .429, the spent 44 mag case I was going to cut for 44 Russian size wiggles around in the cylinder there appears to be .040 difference you can see in the picture. The 45 auto slides in perfectly but not being rimmed there's nothing holding it in place. What caliber cylinder is it? Frame and cylinder numbers match, the barrel is much better blued I think it was swapped out

edit, I found a 45 colt case and it fits perfectly but is a little long. So I have a 44 Russian barrel on a 45S&W frame and cylinder.

Who could rebore the barrel to .452 for me? Would a .45 top break or 44russian cylinder be available anywhere?

Also, would this revolver be accurately described as 44 russian if the the cylinder doesn't support the 44 Russian case? If shooting the bullet would be unsupported between the case and the forcing cone

 

[BCRider]

That size difference and the fact that the .45ACP fits suggests to me that your gun is chambered in .44-40.

That's a highly unusual chambering though. But perhaps some previous owner had it done due to needing a little more hitting power or simply because they couldn't find .44Russian? Or to match their lever rifle?

Can you make up some sort of test gauge from plastic or the like to check for signs of a step down where the shoulders on the .44-40 should be? Also check for the beginning of the throat. Again the .44-40 is quite a lot longer than the .44Russian so if the cylinder has been re-chambered you should be able to see signs of this.

 

[bandit86]

The 44-40 base diameter is .470, the 45 colt is .480. The 44-40 case would be very sloppy with .020 difference between bullet and cylinder.

This is what mine SHOULD look like, with the step at the end that guides the bullet towards the forcing cone. Mine doesn't have it leading me to believe it was for one sort of heeled bullet

 

[BCRider]

A heeled bullet means it's the full size of the casing, or close to it. So it would be WAY over sized to fit into the bore.

Sounds like you've got a bit of a mystery on your hands. I'd say a chamber casting so you can have a more accurate profile of the chamber to examine is in order.

Perhaps some sort of .45-.44 wildcat conversion to allow using .45Colt brass necked down? But that's purely a WAG at this point.

 

[bandit86]

A necked down 45 would be unsafe because there is nothing holding the case neck, without support it would expand and the gasses would blow out around the bullet

Yes it is a mystery. The barrel is blued, the trigger guard is nickelled, cylinder and frame numbers match so smetime over the last 135 years somebody had 2 or three of these guns lying around and probably put all the best parts into making one nice one not realizing they were different caliber. He ended up with a 44 Russian cylinder and a 45 barrel and he had a nice looking gun that shot like crap since the 44 bullet would just tumble in the 45 barrel. Not understanding the screwup he just sold off his guns or traded them in and I'm stuck with one of said projects.

I talked to an Uberti parts dealer, got a new 44 Russian cylinder coming in a few weeks. Since the Uberti new model 3 Russian is a knockoff of the original model 3 I'm hoping it will be an easy fit.

 

[BCRider]

The WAG about the 45 being necked down was me instantly forgetting that you typed that there was no throats in your chambers. I was still thinking of some sort of odd shouldered round. Sorry.

Given the barrel and frame finish situation I'm tempted to agree that it was a mismanaged project. I hope the cylinder update works out for you.

EDIT; Uh.... what about the ejector star? You're going to need one of those as well to match the smaller casings.

 

[bandit86]

The WAG about the 45 being necked down was me instantly forgetting that you typed that there was no throats in your chambers. I was still thinking of some sort of odd shouldered round. Sorry.

Given the barrel and frame finish situation I'm tempted to agree that it was a mismanaged project. I hope the cylinder update works out for you.

EDIT; Uh.... what about the ejector star? You're going to need one of those as well to match the smaller casings.

Oh crap you're right, they'd send me a blank cylinder... I need to call them back

 

[Skinny 1950]

A member with a lot of experience with this type of thing goes by the handle of "dingus" you can find him on the EE under Antiques and Black powder...look for the yellow banner and send him a PM.

 

[mkrnel]

A easier and cheaper option may be to just reline the barrel to .45 especially if it is in rough shape (pitted) and shoot it as a .45 Schofield.

Most good gunsmiths can get .45 barrel liner stock and reline one of these S&W DA top break revolvers pretty easily, cheaper than re-boring and then rifling again.

A .45 Schofield is shorter than a .45 colt, or maybe even use .445 Webley ammo.

 

[rigrat]

A Uberti Cylinder will not fit as they are made longer to fit the 45LC and 44/40. The Quill is also a different size than that of a real S&W 3. Is your unit a DA or SA. The cylinder you have is for a double action 3 If you can send me some pics of the whole pistol I might be able to help a little. rigrat@shaw.ca .............regards rigrat

A necked down 45 would be unsafe because there is nothing holding the case neck, without support it would expand and the gasses would blow out around the bullet

Yes it is a mystery. The barrel is blued, the trigger guard is nickelled, cylinder and frame numbers match so smetime over the last 135 years somebody had 2 or three of these guns lying around and probably put all the best parts into making one nice one not realizing they were different caliber. He ended up with a 44 Russian cylinder and a 45 barrel and he had a nice looking gun that shot like crap since the 44 bullet would just tumble in the 45 barrel. Not understanding the screwup he just sold off his guns or traded them in and I'm stuck with one of said projects.

I talked to an Uberti parts dealer, got a new 44 Russian cylinder coming in a few weeks. Since the Uberti new model 3 Russian is a knockoff of the original model 3 I'm hoping it will be an easy fit.