cant find any data on reloading .455 Webley or the type of black powder to be buying
- Thread starter skneub
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#1bcshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- North Of The DMZ (US border)
Google!
I use 250 gr 45 LC bullets (pure lead) over 4.5 grains of Unique for mine.
But I'm running a 2nd model S & W. If you are running an old break top Webley that might not be to your liking ( although it does seem quite sedate IMO)
BP is tough to locate so Goex or Swiss in a FFg or FFFg would be alright; just make sure the cartridge is full, no air space at all! If that seems awfully brisk you can use some sort of filler, but the dimunitive lil Webley case full of BP should be fine.
Are you running a Webley?
But I'm running a 2nd model S & W. If you are running an old break top Webley that might not be to your liking ( although it does seem quite sedate IMO)
BP is tough to locate so Goex or Swiss in a FFg or FFFg would be alright; just make sure the cartridge is full, no air space at all! If that seems awfully brisk you can use some sort of filler, but the dimunitive lil Webley case full of BP should be fine.
Are you running a Webley?
I reload .455 Webley - I've put a buncha rounds through mine. What would you like to know? 
First, as asked above, are you shooting an actual top-break Webley? And if so, what model is it? Mine is a Mk. VI made in 1918, the Mk. VI was the strongest of the bunch as the metallurgy just kept getting better.
Second, what brass do you have? There were two lengths of Webley brass, the Mk. I (which was a black powder round) and the Mk. II (which was originally loaded with cordite). You can use either, and load smokeless in the Mk. I - brass for the .455 is a royal pain to get.
Third, are you sure you don't have a shaved cylinder? If you do, you can buy moon clips off the 'web and shoot .45 ACP BUT!!!!!! DO NOT shoot factory .45 ACP in a top-break Webley, you're asking to blow it up. If the cylinder is shaved, you can look for .45 Auto Rim, they fit the shaved cylinders on Webleys, Colts and S&W's.
Loading for mine is straightforward; it likes 230gr or 255gr lead bullets, I load the 255's with 3.2gr Trail Boss and the 230's with 3.5gr - I give the 230gr bullet 0.3gr more powder because Trail Boss is dirty, and a bit more powder burns a bit better and cleaner with the lighter bullet; velocities are ~650 f/s. The Webley Mk. VI was rated at 750 f/s with a 265gr soft lead bullet, so I figger I've got lots of margin; if you're planning to shoot an original Mk. I - IV, I'd think carefully about pressures.
I size all the bullets to 0.450" - yep, .450. Why, you ask? Isn't it a .455? Nope; glad you asked. Apparently all the Webleys were bored with a 0.442" drill, and then rifled 0.004" on either side for a total of 0.450"; why they call 'em a "455" beats me. The Webleys will apparently swallow immense oversized soft lead bullets because they have mammoth forcing cones, but I can't drop a 0.450" bullet through the cylinder or the barrel, and mine is mild and quite accurate with the above loads.
If you plan to do some serious shooting with yours, you might want to get extra grips for it - you can order repro's - I shot PP with mine, and my original grips started to crack from the stress. If you'd like to see mine (dressed-up with its original grips) there's a picture in the 'Best-Looking Guns' thread in the pistol forum, on page 24.
First, as asked above, are you shooting an actual top-break Webley? And if so, what model is it? Mine is a Mk. VI made in 1918, the Mk. VI was the strongest of the bunch as the metallurgy just kept getting better.
Second, what brass do you have? There were two lengths of Webley brass, the Mk. I (which was a black powder round) and the Mk. II (which was originally loaded with cordite). You can use either, and load smokeless in the Mk. I - brass for the .455 is a royal pain to get.
Third, are you sure you don't have a shaved cylinder? If you do, you can buy moon clips off the 'web and shoot .45 ACP BUT!!!!!! DO NOT shoot factory .45 ACP in a top-break Webley, you're asking to blow it up. If the cylinder is shaved, you can look for .45 Auto Rim, they fit the shaved cylinders on Webleys, Colts and S&W's.
Loading for mine is straightforward; it likes 230gr or 255gr lead bullets, I load the 255's with 3.2gr Trail Boss and the 230's with 3.5gr - I give the 230gr bullet 0.3gr more powder because Trail Boss is dirty, and a bit more powder burns a bit better and cleaner with the lighter bullet; velocities are ~650 f/s. The Webley Mk. VI was rated at 750 f/s with a 265gr soft lead bullet, so I figger I've got lots of margin; if you're planning to shoot an original Mk. I - IV, I'd think carefully about pressures.
I size all the bullets to 0.450" - yep, .450.
Why, you ask? Isn't it a .455? Nope; glad you asked. Apparently all the Webleys were bored with a 0.442" drill, and then rifled 0.004" on either side for a total of 0.450"; why they call 'em a "455" beats me. The Webleys will apparently swallow immense oversized soft lead bullets because they have mammoth forcing cones, but I can't drop a 0.450" bullet through the cylinder or the barrel, and mine is mild and quite accurate with the above loads.If you plan to do some serious shooting with yours, you might want to get extra grips for it - you can order repro's - I shot PP with mine, and my original grips started to crack from the stress. If you'd like to see mine (dressed-up with its original grips) there's a picture in the 'Best-Looking Guns' thread in the pistol forum, on page 24.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
black powder(if you are going the BP route) you should be getting is 3f(fffg) or pryrodex p if you said black powder and meant smokeless I suggest not reloading at all
skneub
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Trust me I have google lol..Its drawing a bit of not much.
Its a knock off of a RIC
I reload .455 Webley - I've put a buncha rounds through mine. What would you like to know?
First, as asked above, are you shooting an actual top-break Webley? And if so, what model is it? Mine is a Mk. VI made in 1918, the Mk. VI was the strongest of the bunch as the metallurgy just kept getting better.
Second, what brass do you have? There were two lengths of Webley brass, the Mk. I (which was a black powder round) and the Mk. II (which was originally loaded with cordite). You can use either, and load smokeless in the Mk. I - brass for the .455 is a royal pain to get.
Third, are you sure you don't have a shaved cylinder? If you do, you can buy moon clips off the 'web and shoot .45 ACP BUT!!!!!! DO NOT shoot factory .45 ACP in a top-break Webley, you're asking to blow it up. If the cylinder is shaved, you can look for .45 Auto Rim, they fit the shaved cylinders on Webleys, Colts and S&W's.
Loading for mine is straightforward; it likes 230gr or 255gr lead bullets, I load the 255's with 3.2gr Trail Boss and the 230's with 3.5gr - I give the 230gr bullet 0.3gr more powder because Trail Boss is dirty, and a bit more powder burns a bit better and cleaner with the lighter bullet; velocities are ~650 f/s. The Webley Mk. VI was rated at 750 f/s with a 265gr soft lead bullet, so I figger I've got lots of margin; if you're planning to shoot an original Mk. I - IV, I'd think carefully about pressures.
I size all the bullets to 0.450" - yep, .450.
If you plan to do some serious shooting with yours, you might want to get extra grips for it - you can order repro's - I shot PP with mine, and my original grips started to crack from the stress. If you'd like to see mine (dressed-up with its original grips) there's a picture in the 'Best-Looking Guns' thread in the pistol forum, on page 24.
Not a break top , and nope to the moon clips
fortunately or unfortunately lol(brass would be easy to find lol)I bought .455 Webley Mark II ammo from Canada ammo , but it is to hot for it.
So I need to take it all apart and load it down lighter.
Pressure is an issue I am worried about , I don't care how accurate it is so to say .
Its a plinking kinda thing lol...Hey you over there lol...Yea "The Man" lookey what I got in the bush Hahahaha
You know , Take the ol girl out for a walk once in a while(Sure don't want to wreck it or me)
Interesting about the bore
skneub
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
This is kind of what I was looking for I think(It is proofed for black powder and I don't care if its dirty and smoky) It will clean.
I don't want to play with smokeless in this.
Some people say they do , and that's fine.
Not my gun or my body
The pressure curve for smokeless equivalent loads are different from black powder.
Some say it's perfectly safe, others have anecdotes about people being killed.
With huge differences in old guns one to the next nothing can be said for sure unless it's checked out by a competent gunsmith who knows about these things.
If someone wants to load black powder cartridges all the power to them. I'm looking at an antique 50-70 so might be joining that crowd too. Gotta love the fire and brimstone of the holy black powder.
A quick Google search popped up with some results. Several sources say an 18gr load of FFFg was the original Mk.1 load with 265gr hollow base soft lead bullet. Didn't find a listing for diameter though.
At 18gr it's a very light compression on the powder and you probably wont need a drop tube.
Do make sure there is some compression as you don't want any room for the powder to move inside the loaded cartridge when dealing with black powder.
18gr of FFFg is an exceptionally light load. Some results show around the 600fps mark.
By comparison a 45 Schofield uses 27gr and a 45 colt uses 35.5gr; both with a 255gr bullet and FFFg (data from my Lyman black powder book; sorry, no data for the .455).
Some say it's perfectly safe, others have anecdotes about people being killed.
With huge differences in old guns one to the next nothing can be said for sure unless it's checked out by a competent gunsmith who knows about these things.
If someone wants to load black powder cartridges all the power to them. I'm looking at an antique 50-70 so might be joining that crowd too. Gotta love the fire and brimstone of the holy black powder.
A quick Google search popped up with some results. Several sources say an 18gr load of FFFg was the original Mk.1 load with 265gr hollow base soft lead bullet. Didn't find a listing for diameter though.
At 18gr it's a very light compression on the powder and you probably wont need a drop tube.
Do make sure there is some compression as you don't want any room for the powder to move inside the loaded cartridge when dealing with black powder.
18gr of FFFg is an exceptionally light load. Some results show around the 600fps mark.
By comparison a 45 Schofield uses 27gr and a 45 colt uses 35.5gr; both with a 255gr bullet and FFFg (data from my Lyman black powder book; sorry, no data for the .455).
skneub
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Never thought to google mark I , But from what I have read It should be around the 600fps and no more. This would be very similar to a mark I
These factory rounds are rated at 850fps with a 262 grs (way to hot)
I have read also about the air space ...
I guess a little more research before purchase would have made life easy lol...Why take the easy road lol
#1bcshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- North Of The DMZ (US border)
That's funny when I google "455 webley reloading data" I get lots of results
Here is a sample
ht tp://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=455%20Webley&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=
remove the space from the http to get to the site
Here is a sample
ht tp://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=455%20Webley&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=
remove the space from the http to get to the site
It's a PITA but I make my own brass out of Hornady 45 Schofield brass as I'd heard that Fioccha for Canada Ammo is crap for reloading.
But the Hornady is holding up quite well on multiple reloads. And it allows me room to do custom work, I suspect my S & W 2nd edition is actually built for Autorim due to the chamber length so I cut it as such. But that is good too as I can use 45 ACP reloading dies.
If you want to know the fast version for fabb'ing brass PM me, I can fill you in.
Stay with BP IMO, safer and easy enough to clean anyhow
But the Hornady is holding up quite well on multiple reloads. And it allows me room to do custom work, I suspect my S & W 2nd edition is actually built for Autorim due to the chamber length so I cut it as such. But that is good too as I can use 45 ACP reloading dies.
If you want to know the fast version for fabb'ing brass PM me, I can fill you in.
Stay with BP IMO, safer and easy enough to clean anyhow
skneub
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I read that it was not good quality for reloading as well, The reason I went with it was .
I get some brass and bullets at the same time , And they had the casting compound I was looking for.
So I ordered up 3 boxes a box of privy .303 and my casting compound for the free shipping deal ;-)
I am gonna see if they have fffg in town here shortly.
Then google again, Gotta be sure.
Theres no rush , I have plenty of bang sticks to play with lol
Sorry for the questions that seem so simple to some.
Some things I am an expert at...Like I can take your car apart at the spot welds and put it back together without even blinking about it.
But this reloading is something I have never tried , there's risks I am aware of and I would rather not blow myself up lol
skneub
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
50-70 is listed here http://goexpowder.com/goex-black-powder.html
Thank you for the advice everyone , It puts me one step closer to what I need to know.
I find both .450 and .455 revolver loads on the Goex site.
Thinking that the .455 load is still to hot at just over 700fps
I kind of wonder if I can use the load for the .450 and fill the extra space with filler as suggested.
Unsure , and my projectiles are 265 grain..
More research is to be done.
But you gave me an excellent start
If you're loading black powder, you'll need the Mk. I cases, the Mk. II's are too short to load any decent amount of black powder. Also, black powder is dirty as he11, and corrosive - make sure you wash it out well with hot water after you use it.
Best empties to make into Webleys would likely be .45 long Colt, they're straight-sided (so you can cut 'em long for Mk. I's) and readily available. If you use .45 LC's, you'll need to thin the rim; the Webley has a very thin rim and (experience says ) it will not use .45 LC cases straight-up. You thin the rim from the cartridge-mouth side, not the primer side - or you'll shorten the primer pocket.
Pressure-wise, the lowest load of Trail Boss I used was 2.9gr - the pistol went 'CHUFF' instead of 'BANG' - but I had extreme variability of muzzle velocity; 371 - 598 fps, I can not recommend that load. With 3.2gr it was much more consistent, 589 - 610 fps. Trail Boss was specifically formulated for part-pressure loads with lead bullets, it's probably your best bet; lots of margin wrt 750 fps and it will fit in a Mk. II case - and you'd really have to work at it to fit a double charge of Trail Boss in a Mk. II case, so another safety aspect.
I have 100 rds of Fiocchi brass, it's on likely its third or fourth reload and I've never had a problem with it. Indeed, if you're prepared to pull the bullets (DO NOT reuse the powder!!!) I recommend you buy yourself a couple hundred rounds of Fiocchi and leave it at that, because it all uses the same primer size. I have three different types of casing, and it's a pain:
1) Fiocchi; #5 shellholder, small primer
2) Hornady / Dominion / Rem-UMC; #5 shell holder, large primer
3) converted .45 LC; #11 shellholder (it wiggles-out of the #5), large primer
- and note; if you have a Hornady LnL AP press, the #5 shellplate "almost" fits.
An alternative is to get in touch with Rusty Wood Trading Company - a fellow CGN member - and order yourself some Bertram brass: ht tp://www.rustywood.ca/bertram.html (remove the space in 'http'). He has Bertram brass in stock; they are Mk I's and you won't have to do any mod's on them, but they're quite expensive; $78ish for fifty.
Best empties to make into Webleys would likely be .45 long Colt, they're straight-sided (so you can cut 'em long for Mk. I's) and readily available. If you use .45 LC's, you'll need to thin the rim; the Webley has a very thin rim and (experience says
) it will not use .45 LC cases straight-up. You thin the rim from the cartridge-mouth side, not the primer side - or you'll shorten the primer pocket.Pressure-wise, the lowest load of Trail Boss I used was 2.9gr - the pistol went 'CHUFF' instead of 'BANG' - but I had extreme variability of muzzle velocity; 371 - 598 fps, I can not recommend that load. With 3.2gr it was much more consistent, 589 - 610 fps. Trail Boss was specifically formulated for part-pressure loads with lead bullets, it's probably your best bet; lots of margin wrt 750 fps and it will fit in a Mk. II case - and you'd really have to work at it to fit a double charge of Trail Boss in a Mk. II case, so another safety aspect.
I have 100 rds of Fiocchi brass, it's on likely its third or fourth reload and I've never had a problem with it. Indeed, if you're prepared to pull the bullets (DO NOT reuse the powder!!!) I recommend you buy yourself a couple hundred rounds of Fiocchi and leave it at that, because it all uses the same primer size. I have three different types of casing, and it's a pain:
1) Fiocchi; #5 shellholder, small primer
2) Hornady / Dominion / Rem-UMC; #5 shell holder, large primer
3) converted .45 LC; #11 shellholder (it wiggles-out of the #5), large primer
- and note; if you have a Hornady LnL AP press, the #5 shellplate "almost" fits.
An alternative is to get in touch with Rusty Wood Trading Company - a fellow CGN member - and order yourself some Bertram brass: ht tp://www.rustywood.ca/bertram.html (remove the space in 'http'). He has Bertram brass in stock; they are Mk I's and you won't have to do any mod's on them, but they're quite expensive; $78ish for fifty.
Trail Boss does some really weird things in terms of pressure. I would avoid it in old firearms meant for black powder. Don't assume it's low pressure just because it's low velocity.
From the Hodgdon data site for 45-70 loads with 405gr cast bullets you see some really weird numbers.
Trail boss
971 fps
24,500 CUP
H4198
1251 fps
14,200 CUP
So a 29% increase in velocity was produced with a 40% decrease in pressure?
You see similar results all over the place with Trail Boss compared to other powders with reduced loads. Happens for every weight of bullet in every cartridge I've looked at data for.
Multiple different reloading sources all have similar results for Trail Boss.
With reduced loads they are all well below max pressure in modern smokeless guns so are perfectly safe. For old black powder firearms I would really avoid it.
It isn't just large rifle cases you see this with. Here are some numbers for 45 Colt with a 250gr lead cast bullet:
Trail Boss
606 fps
8800 PSI
Titegroup
716 fps
7600 PSI
Again, lower velocity with a higher pressure for Trail Boss.
Trail Boss is a modern smokeless powder, not a black powder substitute.
From the Hodgdon data site for 45-70 loads with 405gr cast bullets you see some really weird numbers.
Trail boss
971 fps
24,500 CUP
H4198
1251 fps
14,200 CUP
So a 29% increase in velocity was produced with a 40% decrease in pressure?
You see similar results all over the place with Trail Boss compared to other powders with reduced loads. Happens for every weight of bullet in every cartridge I've looked at data for.
Multiple different reloading sources all have similar results for Trail Boss.
With reduced loads they are all well below max pressure in modern smokeless guns so are perfectly safe. For old black powder firearms I would really avoid it.
It isn't just large rifle cases you see this with. Here are some numbers for 45 Colt with a 250gr lead cast bullet:
Trail Boss
606 fps
8800 PSI
Titegroup
716 fps
7600 PSI
Again, lower velocity with a higher pressure for Trail Boss.
Trail Boss is a modern smokeless powder, not a black powder substitute.
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skneub
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I bought Goex fffg ;-)
Have pulled bullets on 20 bran new rounds so far .
They come out pretty easy even for being crimped ;-)
Already got dies for .455 webley as well.
I truly dont care about the mess .
Its more a novelty thing than anything else.
I will however take better care of this six gun than I do my SKS lol...it gets cleaned when it acts up
Have pulled bullets on 20 bran new rounds so far .
They come out pretty easy even for being crimped ;-)
Already got dies for .455 webley as well.
I truly dont care about the mess .
Its more a novelty thing than anything else.
I will however take better care of this six gun than I do my SKS lol...it gets cleaned when it acts up
Reading this may help;
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=39491.0
Also Google "455 Webley Mk1 cartridge" and "455 Webley Mk1 cartridge images"
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=39491.0
Also Google "455 Webley Mk1 cartridge" and "455 Webley Mk1 cartridge images"
Hi All,
I'm in a similar boat to the OP. I have a S&W New Century which is chambered in MKII. It is not a break top, (I think it is the same as the Colt, just manufactured under license). I've got some once fired Hornady brass and I bought some 260 gr lead bullets. I can't find any of the powders listed in the instructions I got from my Lee dies and I was thinking of using Trail Boss or black powder.
If I read the posts above correctly the MKII was loaded with cordite so reverting to black powder might not be a good idea?
Any advice would be appreciated.
I'm in a similar boat to the OP. I have a S&W New Century which is chambered in MKII. It is not a break top, (I think it is the same as the Colt, just manufactured under license). I've got some once fired Hornady brass and I bought some 260 gr lead bullets. I can't find any of the powders listed in the instructions I got from my Lee dies and I was thinking of using Trail Boss or black powder.
If I read the posts above correctly the MKII was loaded with cordite so reverting to black powder might not be a good idea?
Any advice would be appreciated.
Using black powder will work as it's much lower pressure but if you can use smokeless it's a lot less mess.
I mentioned pressure issues above. Just because trailboss produces lower velocities does not mean it's doing so with lower pressure. However since the revolver was meant for cordite it should be safe with trailboss if it's structurally and mechanically sound. I would have it checked out by a competent gunsmith if it's an antique that hasn't been used in decades. If it's been maintained well and used regularly with factory smokeless ammo I would try trailboss, if it's all I had, with the usual starting load of 70% of the case volume under a seated bullet. Not 70% of total case volume as I've seen some people mention on CGN before.
Pistol powders are still somewhat difficult to find even though rifle powders are in stock more commonly again. Call around, check back often, and cross your fingers.
I mentioned pressure issues above. Just because trailboss produces lower velocities does not mean it's doing so with lower pressure. However since the revolver was meant for cordite it should be safe with trailboss if it's structurally and mechanically sound. I would have it checked out by a competent gunsmith if it's an antique that hasn't been used in decades. If it's been maintained well and used regularly with factory smokeless ammo I would try trailboss, if it's all I had, with the usual starting load of 70% of the case volume under a seated bullet. Not 70% of total case volume as I've seen some people mention on CGN before.
Pistol powders are still somewhat difficult to find even though rifle powders are in stock more commonly again. Call around, check back often, and cross your fingers.
