Cutting SXS barrels

rimfire458

rimfire458

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I'm looking at an older (Say 1900) vintage SXS 10 gauge. Not a top of the line gun yet still some quality. I know if I get the long pipes cut back I'll lose regulation, but. I'm thinking that given it's not a purdey I'm probably looking at rib re-solder, or at least touch up. Is this a nightmare to make look/function properly?
 
What is the purpose you have in mind?

I've shorted a total of three SxS's to use in cowboy action and they've all turned out fine without altering the regulation for the sort of distances that are used. But of course each is a case unto itself. So no guarantees.

The pattern from the shorter cylinder bores certainly opens up compared to the longer barrels and with chokes. But for close in out to around 15 yards the shot column still is reasonably tight. Much past that and the things are opening up fairly fast with target loads.

The job entails a hacksaw to do the initial cut then a fine cut file and a basic machinist's square or combination square to eyeball the filing job square. For myself I also use some jeweler's files to clean up the hourglass hole in the end so it's bare metal for about an 1/8 inch in and file a piece of steel to fit fairly well. This gets soldered in place and filed smooth.

The barrels taper inwards to the muzzle so using the square requires a little bit of judgement to make things fairly equal. But it's a SHOTGUN. Having said this with just a reasonable care I've found that all three shotguns I've done shot to POA just fine when patterned on a paper or corrugated cardboard target at 10 to 12 yards.
 
You can also fill the gap with a small patch shoved in and flush with black epoxy... when it has cured it can be filed/polished flat and looks good.
 
if you think the ribs are loose take the barrel hold them by them lump and give them a tap they should have a nice ring other then that cut them with a fine tooth hack saw blade and plug the hole between the barrels as said above I have used both low temp solder and jb weld works well. that said id pay shipping for the cut off of the barrel they make cool shift knobs ;)
 
Chances are a 1900 vintage shotgun has damascus barrels. Not considered safe to shoot and won't cut like a solid barrel.
 
sunray said:
Chances are a 1900 vintage shotgun has damascus barrels. Not considered safe to shoot and won't cut like a solid barrel.
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again with the misinformation Damascus barrels are perfectly safe as long as you know what you are doing and not all shotguns from that timeframe have Damascus barrels. I have one of the cheapest Damascus shotguns you can buy(made in Belgium) and I shoot it regularly
 
kamlooky said:
This certainly has as cool factor ring to it.............photos..............svp?
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no pic's at the moment but I figured this out as a grabbed the muzzle of a double one day to pick it up and it was kind of comfortable in the hand. I just take the cut off and if its a brazed barrel instead of soldered I plug weld a piece of flat stock shaped to the barrels if soldered I use jb weld. on the bottom of the flat stock I weld a piece of small black pipe and either thread it or use a cap screw to mount it. I have made a few for friends out of cut offs I had laying around but now I got a car with a stick and knife of want one for myself. sorry for the thread hijack
 
There was a 50 year overlap of fluid steel and Damascus barrels. Some Damascus barrels are quite good however you can not tell this by an eyeball inspection. I would not shoot smokeless powder in any Damascus barrel, in good condition they are meant to be shot using black powder.
 
guntech said:
There was a 50 year overlap of fluid steel and Damascus barrels. Some Damascus barrels are quite good however you can not tell this by an eyeball inspection. I would not shoot smokeless powder in any Damascus barrel, in good condition they are meant to be shot using black powder.
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Quite true. For a long time people wouldn't believe that one piece metal had the strength of multiple pieces bashed together
 
guntech said:
There was a 50 year overlap of fluid steel and Damascus barrels. Some Damascus barrels are quite good however you can not tell this by an eyeball inspection. I would not shoot smokeless powder in any Damascus barrel, in good condition they are meant to be shot using black powder.
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If you check the loading tables, you will find some smokeless loadings that are down around 7000 psi which is only a little higher than black powder loadings. I have loaded as low as 4000 psi (according to the tables) but found that I got too much unburned powder. The really critical issue is the integrity of the barrels and of the receiver. The thickness of double barrel cartridge shotguns at the breach is usually fairly constant around .15" wall thickness but the muzzles and over half the length of the barrels can vary tremendously from as little at .015" up to .050". Inside the barrels can vary from pristine to deeply pitted. I think those are the issues you need to consider before shooting any loads in a damascus gun and particularly if you are shooting smokeless in a damascus shotgun. It might surprise people but the early shotgun I am most hesitant to shoot is the one @ 1870 with steel barrels; because I think the refining of iron / steel at that date was still fairly primitive

cheers mooncoon
 
I believe smokeless powder has a different pressure curve than black powder and that is why it should not be used in barrels designed for black powder.
 
guntech said:
I believe smokeless powder has a different pressure curve than black powder and that is why it should not be used in barrels designed for black powder.
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I think the pressure curve differences come more into play as you pass 20,000 psi. Somewhere above 50,000 the curve is going exponential ( ie straight up). Although shooting light smokeless loads and nothing happening is dubious proof of safety, I have fired at least 1000 smokeless rounds through damascus shotguns without problems. I am sure we have all heard tales of damascus guns unwinding or blowing apart but the very few first hand accounts I have heard of, seem to involve either guns in very poor repair or loading errors / stupidity. An example of loading errors was a fellow who posted in the Double Gun Journal about blowing up his shotgun; turned out he had accidentally put smokeless and pyrodex in the same powder tin and within a few shots blew the side out of his barrel with what was estimated to be a triple charge of smokeless. Several years ago also in the Double Gun Journal were one or two articles of testing several shotguns to destruction with increasingly heavy loads. Surprising what the guns stood up to. I would not use that article to shoot factory smokeless loads in my guns but I do think that it is fairly safe to shoot smokeless loads in the 7000 psi range. I have not shot smokeless in 20 guage guns because I have not found and loading tables with low enough pressures

cheers mooncoon
 
I have seen a Cogswell and Harrison boxlock with Damascus barrels that were English nitro proved, so no blanket statement of Damascus no smokeless can really be made.
 
I would agree with moncoon I also shoot Damascus guns and have been doing so for almost 20 years with no problems one is a greener 10 gauge with Stanton locks that was as near as I can tell made around 1877.I got some of the loads for that gun out of the double gun journal and I have also read the articles about trying to blow up a few old Damascus gun using double powder loads and not having any success having said that I use light loads and shoot good guns that are in good condition
Bjake
 
There's a pretty steady dribble of shotguns on the EE with Damascus barrels that go to great lengths to show the "Nitro Proofed" stampings. So it's not that Damascus itself isn't able to handle the load but rather that the makers of the earlier shotguns apparently didn't think that they needed to bother making the guns to handle smokeless it would seem.

There's also a LOT of fun to be had making up and shooting proper black powder loads or using Pyrodex for the loads. Just make sure the guy you don't like is downwind of you on the rotation at the trap shooting line.... :D

I hadn't thought about using JBWeld to fill in the opening. That's not a bad idea. Mind you I'll likely still continue to make up the fitted steel filler and solder them in. I just prefer that added old world metal touch.
 
BCRider said:
There's a pretty steady dribble of shotguns on the EE with Damascus barrels that go to great lengths to show the "Nitro Proofed" stampings. So it's not that Damascus itself isn't able to handle the load but rather that the makers of the earlier shotguns apparently didn't think that they needed to bother making the guns to handle smokeless it would seem.

There's also a LOT of fun to be had making up and shooting proper black powder loads or using Pyrodex for the loads. Just make sure the guy you don't like is downwind of you on the rotation at the trap shooting line.... :D

I hadn't thought about using JBWeld to fill in the opening. That's not a bad idea. Mind you I'll likely still continue to make up the fitted steel filler and solder them in. I just prefer that added old world metal touch.
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I use a metal filler but use JB weld to put it in place rather then heat up soldered barrels
 
Steel is a horrible conductor of heat compared to copper and aluminium. There's no doubt that when I torch some solder around the filler it melts the solder on the rib as well. But I'd be highly surprised it melts more than 1/2 inch down the ribs. The filler I use is only around 1/8 to 3/16 long and once the solder flows in I remove the heat. When done I've never seen a sign of solder on the outside of the ribs down in the tight corner.

Mind you I've been soldering stuff for many a year.
 
BCRider said:
So it's not that Damascus itself isn't able to handle the load but rather that the makers of the earlier shotguns apparently didn't think that they needed to bother making the guns to handle smokeless it would seem.
.
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Damascus guns were sold new until around 1930 but in the US, proofing was not mandatory. In England, if my memory is correct nitro proofing in the early 1900s was still being done with black powder. Additionally, the first hammerless double shotguns go back to 1878 by Theofilus Murcott, so that seeing a hammerless shotgun with damascus barrels is not proof of it being made during the early years of smokeless. Finally, damascus barrels were still being sold in the early 1900s because there was still a strong demand for them in preference to fluid steel

cheers mooncoon
 
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