Antique firearms are deemed not to be a firearm - Criminal Code subsection 84(3)(a)

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detonator

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So why all the discussion about concealing or not concealing antique firearms when carrying in the bush, or locking them up when transporting in a vehicle, if the Criminal code states that and antique firearms are deemed not to be a firearm at all?

I just noticed this on one of my RCMP antique status letters.
 
Because, as I understand it, as soon as a crime is committed with one, they become a firearm in the eyes of the law. In essence, they are only considered to not be firearms because they are assuming you can't shoot them due to age, ammo availability, etc.
 
This, it is not a firearm until you conceal it like a firearm, then it is a firearm and you go to jail. War is peace! Peace is War! Welcome to the police state! I had a flintlock in a yard sale this weekend, all locked down to a tree and all, trigger locked, 2 preppy chicks from Fredericton nearly freaked out that I had an "assault" rifle in a yard sale. It was funny! It maybe an anique to you and me, to the normals it's an assault rifle or automatic machine pistol.
 
Try telling an LEO or CO that your antique 38 Special or 45 ACP, fully functioning Colt SAA, isn't a firearm.
See how far that gets you, even with all the paperwork. One of the loopholes, Justin will get rid of, I'm sure.
 
Look up the criminal code definition of firearm, you'll fire antique status guns do indeed meet that definition. In fact, so do air guns. It's the firearms act definition that antique guns don't meet.
 
Deuce-deuce said:
Look up the criminal code definition of firearm, you'll fire antique status guns do indeed meet that definition. In fact, so do air guns. It's the firearms act definition that antique guns don't meet.
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this is true. This crap is so confusing, its no wonder most cops dont know it. Heck, most gun owners dont know it, if they're even aware there's such a class as antique firearms.
 
Deuce-deuce said:
Look up the criminal code definition of firearm, you'll fire antique status guns do indeed meet that definition. In fact, so do air guns. It's the firearms act definition that antique guns don't meet.
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Section 84 -3 only exempts antiques and guns deemed to be antiques, from registration and from the need for a PAL / R PAL for possessing and acquiring. In all other situations they are considered to be firearms. Relative to the OP, while the law may permit open carry of antique handguns, in the woods, there is enough public ignorance of both firearms and the laws governing them, that it would be extremely naive and stupid to do so in any location where you are likely to meet another person.

I don't believe that air guns categorically meet the exemptions granted by 84 - 3. At one time air guns capable of a velocity of over 500 fps were considered to be firearms but more recently that has been changed to an incomprehensible (to me) measure of pellet energy. A significant number of airguns are now considered to be firearms

cheers mooncoon
 
mooncoon said:
Section 84 -3 only exempts antiques and guns deemed to be antiques, from registration and from the need for a PAL / R PAL for possessing and acquiring. In all other situations they are considered to be firearms. Relative to the OP, while the law may permit open carry of antique handguns, in the woods, there is enough public ignorance of both firearms and the laws governing them, that it would be extremely naive and stupid to do so in any location where you are likely to meet another person.

I don't believe that air guns categorically meet the exemptions granted by 84 - 3. At one time air guns capable of a velocity of over 500 fps were considered to be firearms but more recently that has been changed to an incomprehensible (to me) measure of pellet energy. A significant number of airguns are now considered to be firearms

cheers mooncoon
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Not quite.

What the story is, is thus...

First they said that under 500 fps was able to be sold at places that didn't have firearms sales licensing, Hardware Stores and the like.

Then some bright spark discovered that if you made a lightweight pellet, it would shoot faster velocity, on the same power levels. PBA pellets was one type, advertised as being up to 30 percent higher velocities.

Which then put the sellers (like CTire, Home Hardware, and Walmart) on the hook for selling illegal firearms, by the definition on the books. Because if they sold you a Crosman pistol that shot a regular pellet at 490 fps, and you bought a package of the pellets that got you 30 percent more velocity, you were packing an unregistered restricted, handgun. By definition. Don't think of the children, so much, but think of the corporate CEO's going to jail for selling illegal guns! (yeah, right, but it was actually a possibility, as it was on the books.)

So they added an energy component to the rules. Now it has to be under 500 fps (insert metric equivalent here), unless, if it is over 500 fps, it does not exceed the joules of energy (or ft-lbs, under the Imperial system) specified. Essentially if you shot a styrofoam bead out of and airgun and clocked it, it would go really really fast, but have no energy to speak of, as it is very light weight.

So, you now need to know that if it goes over 500 fps AND has more than the specified mount of energy, it has to have both criteria met, then it is considered to be a firearm for he purposed of the registration, etc. Important. BOTH criteria. Not either/or. Both.

All it does s leave a little breathing room, if you have a lightweight pellet that skips above the 500 fps mark when chrony'd.

It was not to make life easier for the users, it was a way to keep a LOT of corporate arses out of the fire. Corporate arses that are singed, tend to be pretty tight with their political donations, eh?

They really didn't change anything other than to say that if it was over 500 fps, that the energy had to be calculated, and if it came out under the joules limit, it was still OK.

Clear as mud?

If you want to shoot really really light pellets, you can legally do so, well over the 500 fps limit, provided the energy is still below the joules limit. It does not buy you much, if you actually do the calculations. Not too many match grade Styrofoam beads out there to shoot.

Cheers
Trev
 
Criminal code definition of firearm,
“firearm” means a barrelled weapon from which any shot, bullet or other projectile can be discharged and that is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death to a person, and includes any frame or receiver of such a barrelled weapon and anything that can be adapted for use as a firearm;
 
Deuce-deuce said:
Criminal code definition of firearm,
“firearm” means a barrelled weapon from which any shot, bullet or other projectile can be discharged and that is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death to a person, and includes any frame or receiver of such a barrelled weapon and anything that can be adapted for use as a firearm;
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there was a case quite a few years ago under the old rules and before the PAL and C68 where a fellow was convicted for selling a BB gun (or giving it, can't remember) to a neighbors boy. He was reported as demonstrating in court that he could shoot the gun into his hand without penetration but was convicted on the basis that a shot in the eye would do serious damage or injury.

I remain unconvinced of trevj's interpretation of the law. I am sure that I have seen a fairly lengthy list of airguns classified as firearms by the RCMP. The lightweight pellets were giving them a velocity of just over 500 fps. I can't remember enough about the joule rating to speak on it. The list was long enough however to mean that calling an airgun a non firearm is walking a thin line that I would not want to challenge in court

cheers mooncoon
 
Deuce-deuce said:
The criminal code definition hasn't changed. Take a look for yourself.
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Aye. The airgun related stuff is available along with every other Law, for you to read. It's not that complicated.

Lists are well and good, but you sorta have to have some concept of what the actual Law says, to understand WHY the particular one is on a list. Unlike certain guns, which got put on particular lists because they looked scary or someone thought we didn't 'need' them, the airguns that got put on lists were done so to allow a guy not conversant with them, to simply look them up by make and model, and spare himself the actual testing.

If you walk out of CTire with a Airsoft or pellet handgun, and walk in to 7-11 and wave it around, it is still a firearm, and is always considered a weapon (as is a rubber band gun) as far as the charges you will face. But those are a different set of the same laws. As to you supposed case of long ago, and under different rules as well as subject to possibly misremembered information, look it up and see if you can find it, to see what the actual charge were. In any case, the Laws are quite changed since then. Humanity, on the whole, may have actually gotten dumber, if TV is anything to judge by, though.

Cheers
Trev
 
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If one carefully reads through the law governing antique firearms, you will note that there are some exceptions cited, where the antique firearm becomes a firearm. This is clearly stated in 84 (3.1) "Notwithstanding section (3), an antique firearm is a firearm for the purposes of regulations made under paragraph 117(h) of the Firearms Act and subsection 86(2) of this act.

86(2) Every person commits an offence who contravenes a regulation made under paragraph 117(h) of the Firearms Act respecting the storage, handling, transportation, shipping, display, advertising and mail-order sales of firearms and restricted weapons.

Also, if you read the the relevant parts, you will see that an antique is a firearm for section 90(1). That section states:

90(1) Every person commits an offence who carries a weapon, a prohibited device or any prohibited ammunition concealed, unless the person is authorized under the Firearms Act to carry it concealed.

Sections 86(2) and 90(1) are not excluded from the regs governing antique firearms. What this means is that antique firearms are not firearms EXCEPT for 86(2) and 90(1). So don't carry your antique concealed.
 
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Win 38-55 said:
If one carefully reads through the law governing antique firearms, you will note that there are some exceptions cited, where the antique firearm becomes a firearm. This is clearly stated in 84 (3.1) "Notwithstanding section (3), an antique firearm is a firearm for the purposes of regulations made under paragraph 117(h) of the Firearms Act and subsection 86(2) of this act.

86(2) Every person commits an offence who contravenes a regulation made under paragraph 117(h) of the Firearms Act respecting the storage, handling, transportation, shipping, display, advertising and mail-order sales of firearms and restricted weapons.

Also, if you read the the relevant parts, you will see that an antique is a firearm for section 90(1). That section states:

90(1) Every person commits an offence who carries a weapon, a prohibited device or any prohibited ammunition concealed, unless the person is authorized under the Firearms Act to carry it concealed.

Sections 86(2) and 90(1) are not excluded from the regs governing antique firearms. What this means is that antique firearms are not firearms EXCEPT for 86(2) and 90(1). So don't carry your antique concealed.
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thanks for that very useful post. that clarifies a couple questions myself and i'm sure many others have regarding these guns.
 
The FA is part of the CC of C. It's sole purpose is to discourage new shooters regardless of what they shoot. The antique firearm definition is the worst of it. However, the FA doesn't say antiques aren't firearms. It just says you don't need a licence to buy 'em or require registration of 'em. It does say replicas of antiques that cannot discharge a projectile are not firearms. Those would be those white metal things.
 
fraserdw said:
This, it is not a firearm until you conceal it like a firearm, then it is a firearm and you go to jail. War is peace! Peace is War! Welcome to the police state! I had a flintlock in a yard sale this weekend, all locked down to a tree and all, trigger locked, 2 preppy chicks from Fredericton nearly freaked out that I had an "assault" rifle in a yard sale. It was funny! It maybe an anique to you and me, to the normals it's an assault rifle or automatic machine pistol.
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this made me lol
 
I was talking to a gunsmith about getting some work done on both restricted and antique handguns and he insisted on an RCMP letter for the antiques before working on them, this is not a criticism of his policy but I have never heard of this before.
 
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