Antique firearms are deemed not to be a firearm - Criminal Code subsection 84(3)(a)

[Shooting Bastard]

I was talking to a gunsmith about getting some work done on both restricted and antique handguns and he insisted on an RCMP letter for the antiques before working on them, this is not a criticism of his policy but I have never heard of this before.

My gunsmith said the same. He didn't want to risk it, as he didn't believe that one could get a letter on a .38sp SAA. I proved him
wrong, which impressed him. I felt it was a hasstle, at the time, but I'm sure glad of it now, considering recent changes! He didn't require a letter for the .41 LC...

 

[CMichaud]

If one carefully reads through the law governing antique firearms, you will note that there are some exceptions cited, where the antique firearm becomes a firearm. This is clearly stated in 84 (3.1) "Notwithstanding section (3), an antique firearm is a firearm for the purposes of regulations made under paragraph 117(h) of the Firearms Act and subsection 86(2) of this act.

86(2) Every person commits an offence who contravenes a regulation made under paragraph 117(h) of the Firearms Act respecting the storage, handling, transportation, shipping, display, advertising and mail-order sales of firearms and restricted weapons.

Also, if you read the the relevant parts, you will see that an antique is a firearm for section 90(1). That section states:

90(1) Every person commits an offence who carries a weapon, a prohibited device or any prohibited ammunition concealed, unless the person is authorized under the Firearms Act to carry it concealed.

Sections 86(2) and 90(1) are not excluded from the regs governing antique firearms. What this means is that antique firearms are not firearms EXCEPT for 86(2) and 90(1). So don't carry your antique concealed.

So was chatting with a gun store owner today. If I got him right, he was saying that, the minute you shoot an antique gun, the antique firearm loses its antique status.

He claims that there were two guys in Edmonton that were convicted etc etc.

I asked for references but he just told me to call the CFO if I didn't believe him.

All the standard one pagers just refer to possession, transport, and handling. I haven't been able to find anything re discharge of an antique.

Not trying to stir the pot here but for the life of me I cannot understand how it would cease to be an antique and suddenly require a PAL the minute you discharge it (say for example on Crown land away form a road etc).

The only possible reason I can think would be "if" you need a PAL to possess reloaded ammunition? eg you discharge an antique status SAA in 41LC and do not have a PAL?

I have looked through CCC and SOR but see nothing there.

 

[dingus]

I called the BC CFOs office like 9 years ago to ask if i could target shoot with a perscribed antique handgun if i was in a place where i can shoot none restricted firearms.
They had a 2 Hr meeting and then told me the way the rules are currently wrote yes i could target shoot but you cant hunt at all with one and that the place must be a place where a none restricted could be legaly shot.
Them guys in Edmonton mighta been hunting shooting gophers who knows to close to a house to close to a road theres lotsa rules about where you can and can not discharge a firearm.
The only legal reason i have found to pack and shoot a antique handgun in the bush is target shooting as i used to like shooting on crown land.
I now shoot at the range as its a much nicer place to shoot and i can relax more.

 

[CMichaud]

Thanks Dingus

My issue was that he was implying that the minute that the antique is discharged it effectively ceases to be an antique (note I assume he means as far as the CCC and Firearms Act is concerned).

So, for my own edification, do you need a PAL to purchase powder (assume Trailboss), cases, and primers, and/or to shoot your antique on private land (eg your buddies farm) or Crown Land?

NB: I assume that ranges will only let you join if you possess a PAL

As an aside, the owner of the shop brought up golpher hunting. I said I didn't know much about that without reviewing the pertinent hunting regs. Mayeb a dumb question but what is the issue with shooting golphers with an antique?

 

[tiriaq]

So was chatting with a gun store owner today. If I got him right, he was saying that, the minute you shoot an antique gun, the antique firearm loses its antique status.

He claims that there were two guys in Edmonton that were convicted etc etc.

I asked for references but he just told me to call the CFO if I didn't believe him.

All the standard one pagers just refer to possession, transport, and handling. I haven't been able to find anything re discharge of an antique.

Not trying to stir the pot here but for the life of me I cannot understand how it would cease to be an antique and suddenly require a PAL the minute you discharge it (say for example on Crown land away form a road etc).

The only possible reason I can think would be "if" you need a PAL to possess reloaded ammunition? eg you discharge an antique status SAA in 41LC and do not have a PAL?

I have looked through CCC and SOR but see nothing there.

The dealer is wrong.
Years ago it was the case that if a person intended to fire an antique handgun, it became a restricted firearm. This is no longer the case.

 

[budman]

I believe I read that an antique can be fired for target practice
where ever non restricted firearms can be discharged. No
handgun hunting at all. It is written in the act. It becomes a
legal firearm subject to classification and law when misused.

 

[tiriaq]

Whether or not an antique handgun can be used for hunting depends on the hunting regulations.
In one province, the regs clearly state that handguns may not be used for hunting; in another, the regs say that a restricted firearm may not be used for hunting.

 

[Metman2]

The calculation of energy is the same one used for any other gun:

ME in foot-pounds = (Bullet weight in grains * Muzzle-velocity squared) all divided by 450400.

For an 6.5-grain .177 pellet, at 525 fps, you get 4.0 ft-lbs. According to the RCMP web page on airguns
the cutoff is 4.2 ft-lbs, so this would not be classified as a firearm: although the muzzle velocity is greater than 500 fps, the energy does not exceed 4.2 ft-lbs. However, if your airgun shot an 8-grain pellet at 525 fps, it would have muzzle energy of 4.9 ft-lbs or 6.7 Joules, which exceeds the RCMP limit, and you have a firearm!

I believe Trevj is interpreting correctly what a layman would have to know to understand and obey the law in good faith. But I agree with Mooncoon that it could get dicey if you rely only on the lists of manufacturers and/or the official specs. If one has access to a chronograph and a reloading scale, you can measure MV and projectile weight and calculate the muzzle energy.

 

[wbaad]

And what about carrying an antique for protection from predators? I see nothing against it. Discharge of antique firearm is no different than a non restricted obviously because you have to be somewhere safe and legal to shoot. Any hunting would be laid out in the hunting regs as to what class can be used. Concealing any firearm without a permit is a no no and subject to penalty. Open carry of loaded antique handgun should be ok as long as it is in an area safe and legal to discharge.

Discharging an antique does not make it a restricted. It is legally not a firearm until you break the law, then you are open to being punished as if it is a firearm. If is classed as an antique the status does not change,only it's recognition as a firearm.

These rules are awe fully hard to understand, especially if you don't need a course to learn it!

 

[wbaad]

I believe I read that an antique can be fired for target practice
where ever non restricted firearms can be discharged. No
handgun hunting at all. It is written in the act. It becomes a
legal firearm subject to classification and law when misused.

Classification should not change, just it's recognition as a firearm.

 

[wbaad]

The FA is part of the CC of C. It's sole purpose is to discourage new shooters regardless of what they shoot. The antique firearm definition is the worst of it. However, the FA doesn't say antiques aren't firearms. It just says you don't need a licence to buy 'em or require registration of 'em. It does say replicas of antiques that cannot discharge a projectile are not firearms. Those would be those white metal things.

Replicas of antique firearms are prohibited devices, funny isn't it

 

[hollowedpoint]

Are antiques starting to get targeted? Whats with all this jt talk?

 

[wbaad]

The rules are just convoluted and confusing. Just trying to cover out own a$$es and know the laws should push come to shove...
And FYI all firearms and shooting sports have been and will continue to be targeted until further notice...

 

[Tyockell18]

Are antiques starting to get targeted? Whats with all this jt talk?

Every firearm is being targeted and yes antiques are considered firearms, law or otherwise. They know that you all are buying, trading and shooting them. They function and you find or make ammunition.

Let's be realistic here, they hate it. The only thing saving you is that a mental midget knee jerk government has not clamped down on antique irons yet. Wendy and co have hinted several times at their disprovable of antique handguns.

What more do you need to know?

Wake up people, this is Canada and here nothing even remotely questionable is safe, ever.

If you say to yourself, wow, I can do or own this? It's on the hit list.

You all need to develop that mind set or you will eventually lose your self reliance, respect and everything worth doing and owning.

 

[tacfoley]

Replicas of antique firearms are prohibited devices, funny isn't it

Zackly the same here in yUK. You can have ANY calibre as a muzzle-loader, providing that it is an antque, and that you don't wish to shoot it. Any replica thereof is a real live bang-bullet-shooting WMD. You can have ANY antique firearm without any kind of license, providing that the ammunition is no longer available, or it's a muzzle-loader. Sooooooo, you can freely buy a 45-120 Sharps, but not a 45-70 Sharps. You can buy an antique 38-55 rifle so long as you are over 18. But if you want to shoot it, you need a firearms certificate - same for the Pedersoli or Uberti replicas.

I'm having an 'interesting' time in Canada trying to convince the RCMP that a Mk1 Snider is actually an antique firearm, and now thy've asked for photographs......

At the risk of **ssing people off, are they REALLY such a bunch of jerks?

tac

 

[tokguy]

Normally I'm a tad hard on the RCMP too but Kevin Vickers bought them a respite from petty wrath for a spell IMO.
It was nice to see the RCMP portrayed in a patriotic, positive light for a change. Even the 'merican's are giving him 'The nod'.
Just saying...

 

[tacfoley]

Agreed, but the subject of this thread is in no way connected with the brave actions of Mr Vickers, which, incidentally, are fulsomely and rightfully praised on this side of the water, too.

We are talking about the generally unhelpful attitude to something or things that plainly belong in a museum, or hanging on the wall of a stately home somewhere.

tac

 

[mooncoon]

Zackly the same here in yUK. You can have ANY calibre as a muzzle-loader, providing that it is an antque, and that you don't wish to shoot it. Any replica thereof is a real live bang-bullet-shooting WMD. You can have ANY antique firearm without any kind of license, providing that the ammunition is no longer available, or it's a muzzle-loader. Sooooooo, you can freely buy a 45-120 Sharps, but not a 45-70 Sharps. You can buy an antique 38-55 rifle so long as you are over 18.

We differ in Canada in that whether we want to shoot or not is not important in terms of its classification or our needing a possession license. Also the commercial availability of the ammunition is unimportant. The only logic I can see relative to rifles is that they appear to have wanted to prevent antique rifles made in relatively modern military calibers be classed as antique. That is the only significance that I can think of for calling antique rifles of less than 8.something mm as being modern. In your example both the 45-70 and the 38-55 are acceptable as antiques. Fortunately we are not as bad as France who seem to have prohibited rifles in any caliber that was ever a military caliber. That seems to have resulted in some strange (to us) wildcat cartridges that take advantage of an existing barrel and rechamber it to something a little bit different.

In North America (not just Canada) almost any centerfire cartridge is available commercially although many or most of the obsolete cartridges are available only as empty brass shells or basic brass that can be formed into the cartridge desired

I think one of the problems with dealing with the RCMP is that most of them have very little knowledge of firearms beyond the basics of their own issued guns.

cheers mooncoon