Ever heard of a "Blow forward" action?

[Kevin M.]

Me neither, until today.

Neat little gun, but holy heck is there ever a lot going on in a very short period of time in this action.

According to the owner, who counted the frames, the cyclic rate is incredibly fast, which is easily confirmed by watching the video. Approximately a 0.024 second cyclic rate, which in theory gives it close to 2500RPM rate of fire if it was ever made F/A.

Neat piece of history.

 

[Canadian_Zuk]

Cool. How does the ejector work? It looks like when the next round noses up, it kicks the spent case out.

 

[Dr.Islay]

Very cool, thank you. Although I voraciously read everything I can get my grubby paws on, I have never come across this before.

Will have to do a little more searching.

 

[Armored Metal]

Cool! Very interesting little pistol. Thanks for sharing.

 

[sail32]

Many different ideas were tried, mainly to get around existing patens of the time.

 

[silverfoxdj]

Very neat indeed.

 

[Csik boatguy]

That is very cool

 

[Magellann]

Thats amazing, never heard of that before.

 

[mrakimbo]

There are a couple blow-forward pistols, including a weird Japanese one where the firing pin is actually fixed. When the sear goes, the barrel and chamber actually go backwards, driving the primer into the firing pin.

Anyway, the reason for the weird sort of action in the Schwarzlose Model 1908 is John Browning. Semi-autos were still just becoming a thing around this time. And Browning owned a lot of patents so if you wanted to make a semi-auto, you either had to license a Browning patent, or get really creative. Schwarzlose got creative.

Unfortunately the gun wasn't much of a success. They were not popular. According to a few reviews, the recoil on this pistol is actually quite severe for a little .32 cal pistols. Apparently much of the recoil goes straight through the back strap and into your hand.

 

[mrakimbo]

Cool. How does the ejector work? It looks like when the next round noses up, it kicks the spent case out.

there's an ejector on the opposite side of the frame under tension. It holds the cartridge against the breech face and in the chamber. When the action moves forward, there's nothing holding the case in place anymore, and spring pressure forces the cartridge out.

 

[gdawg]

I love all the unique older designs. i noticed there was a Dardick video there too.
good thread

 

[Secondgunman]

I had read about one way back in my cadet days... Once you posted this it jumped forward in my mind, yes they have a gas tube that pushes the operation forward as the new bullet is pulled forward a block ejector pushes the spent round back and out on an angle this then flicks the casing out with aid of the new round being placed. The amount of motion used to cycle is far less then blowbacks so you can place shots far faster if they don't jam up... THIS is providing that is the hand gun I was told about.

After watching the video closer I really don't think that is the one I had seen witch brings me to the question of how many blow forwards have there been??...

 

[Advoc]

So what is the difference in operation between this and say an Auto Ordinance Thompson? That's kind of what I figured we'd be watching by the title of the thread, but I suppose a Thompson doesn't really "blow" forward. Any insight?

 

[mrakimbo]

So what is the difference in operation between this and say an Auto Ordinance Thompson? That's kind of what I figured we'd be watching by the title of the thread, but I suppose a Thompson doesn't really "blow" forward. Any insight?

Not sure how you think the design is at all similar to the Thompson. The Thompson is a blow-back. Gas pressure from the cartridge forces the action backwards. In the Schwarzlose, the action is blown forwards.

 

[mrakimbo]

I had read about one way back in my cadet days... Once you posted this it jumped forward in my mind, yes they have a gas tube that pushes the operation forward as the new bullet is pulled forward a block ejector pushes the spent round back and out on an angle this then flicks the casing out with aid of the new round being placed. The amount of motion used to cycle is far less then blowbacks so you can place shots far faster if they don't jam up... THIS is providing that is the hand gun I was told about.

After watching the video closer I really don't think that is the one I had seen witch brings me to the question of how many blow forwards have there been??...

The Schwarzlose has no gas tube; it's a straight, old-fashioned blow-back pistol... in reverse. The action moves forward largely by gas pressure from the spend cartridge, but also the bullet basically dragging the barrel with it.

There have been 3 blow-forward pistols:

Steyr Mannlicher M1894: tested by the US Army in 1900, it was obviously not selected. The pistol was prone to jamming or misfiring, and the barrel burst. It was loaded by stripper clip, but required you to #### the hammer after every shot. It was self-loading, but that's it.

Schwarzlose Model 1908: the subject of the thread. A weird little .32 cal pistol with severe recoil. Never gained much popularity. Originally made in Germany, about 8,000 were made, but only about 1,300 were made in Germany. Warner Arms made them in America and they were considered junk by comparison. Warner Arms ended up going out of business after introducing an even worse pistol, the Infallible.

Hino Komuro M1908: extremely rare pistol, never in service. Tested by the Japanese military and mothballed. I mentioned this design earlier in the thread; the firing pin is fixed, and the chamber slams back against it to fire the cartridge. It's a little weird; when cocked, the barrel is forward of the chamber and the cartridge, and when the trigger is pulled the barrel is unlocked, it falls backwards over the cartridge, and into the firing pin. It's a unique, but ultimately failed design.

 

[Advoc]

Not sure how you think the design is at all similar to the Thompson. The Thompson is a blow-back. Gas pressure from the cartridge forces the action backwards. In the Schwarzlose, the action is blown forwards.

Well the bolt is open when cocked and rushes forward when you pull the trigger. I don't know of any other gun that works that way discounting my paintball guns.

 

[mrakimbo]

Well the bolt is open when cocked and rushes forward when you pull the trigger. I don't know of any other gun that works that way discounting my paintball guns.

That's called Open Bolt: the bolt is held open, or rearward, by the sear. When the sear releases the bolt it closes, strips and chambers the round, and then fires that round almost simultaneously. It's not an uncommon design, and a lot of sub and machine guns used this design like the MP40, MG34 and MG42, M60, FG42, Mac 10, Uzi, M1918 Browning, Bren, FN MAG and FN Minimi, Sten and Sterling, PPSh-41 and PPS, and M3 "Grease Gun" are all pretty famous open bolt automatics.

And not all of the above guns are blow-back. Some are, but some are gas operated, others recoil operated.

On the Schwarzlose, the action goes forward as a result of the cartridge's gas pressure. On the other guns, the action goes forward as result of spring tension.

 

[WRH]

Well the bolt is open when cocked and rushes forward when you pull the trigger. I don't know of any other gun that works that way discounting my paintball guns.

This may be helpful:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/06/20/open-bolt-explained-tale-uzis/

 

[Bojangles]

I believe in the 1980s, there was a "blow forward" shotgun produced by Cobray. When the trigger was pulled, the barrel (containing the shot shell) was released and moved rearward to a breech face with a fixed firing pin. The cartridge was fired and the barrel blown forward. A shot was inserted manually into the barrel and it was ready to fire again.

Cheers!

B

 

[jongun]

That's pretty neat.