Loose bullets

Danger Bunny

Danger Bunny

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I just got my first PAL, and my first rifle (a Remington 597 VTR) and picked up some ammo for it on my way to the range for the very first time.

EDIT It's Winchester ammo, not Remington -- I'm fixing it below

I bought a brick (555 rounds) of Winchester .22LR, and was having numerous feed problems with it. Then I noticed that many of the bullets are loose in the shell. What I mean is I can take an unfired round and wiggle or spin the bullet while holding the case firm. Once I separated out a few of these rounds I've found that they will almost never feed properly and the rounds where the bullet isn't loose feed much more reliably.

Is this normal for Winchester "bulk" ammo?
Is this normal for "bulk" ammo in general?
Is there any way to fix these rounds? I'll just assume that standing the round up on a solid surface and lightly tapping the bullet into the shell with a hammer (to seat the bullet) is not a good idea...
 
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Yes it common for bulk 22lr of most types.

Don't tap it with a hammer.

It should still shoot decently in some other firearms but YMMV.

It's not really an issue unless you're trying for the best possible results. For plinking I wouldn't worry.
 
Danger Bunny said:
I just got my first PAL, and my first rifle (a Remington 597 VTR) and picked up some ammo for it on my way to the range for the very first time.

I bought a brick (555 rounds) of Remington .22LR, and was having numerous feed problems with it. Then I noticed that many of the bullets are loose in the shell. What I mean is I can take an unfired round and wiggle or spin the bullet while holding the case firm. Once I separated out a few of these rounds I've found that they will almost never feed properly and the rounds where the bullet isn't loose feed much more reliably.

Is this normal for Remington "bulk" ammo?
Is this normal for "bulk" ammo in general?
Is there any way to fix these rounds? I'll just assume that standing the round up on a solid surface and lightly tapping the bullet into the shell with a hammer (to seat the bullet) is not a good idea...
Click to expand...

If you do decide to do this make sure you record it and post the video here.
 
Is there any way to fix these rounds? I'll just assume that standing the round up on a solid surface and lightly tapping the bullet into the shell with a hammer (to seat the bullet) is not a good idea...

YOU HAVE THAT RIGHT -- IT IS ABSOLUTELY A DUMB IDEA. .22 rimfire cartridges are very sensitive to shock, and smacking one with a hammer can easily set them off. Without anything to contain the gas pressure, the brass case tends to shatter into many small pieces, sort of a miniature hand grenade. This is harmful to your face, body, eyes and other parts that you might have attached to you slightly below your belt line. TAKE WARNING.

You say that you have numerous feed problems but do not describe just what is happening. Sometimes, this is the fault of the operator of the 597 rifle.

The Remington 597 depends upon the blow back of the cartridge to cycle the action. It has two springs to push the breech block forward after firing to reload another round from the magazine. These springs are over two guide rods, which run through each side of the breech block.

I have found, over the years, for some reason or other, people tend to disassemble perfectly good functioning firearms and get into trouble because they do not realize the relationship of parts and operation of these firearms.

The Remington 597 is one of these firearms, and people tend not to read the Manual provided with it. Getting back to the guide rods. These guide rods are simply held into the action by a screw behind each one. THEY SHOULD BE LOOSE IN THE RECEIVER. That is, put them into the rifle, LIGHTLY tighten the screw to hold them into place BUT DO NOT TIGHTEN THE SCREW UP ON THE RODS. In fact, it is better to lightly turn the screw in to you feel a LIGHT resistance or it is snug then back it out a half turn to provide a small gap between the screw and the guide rods.

If you tighten the screws too much and put pressure on the guide rods. the guide rods will BOW OR BEND SLIGHTLY. This causes them to rub up against the breech block as it comes back, providing enough friction to slow it down too much so that it will not cycle back far enough to pick up round from the magazine and load it into the chamber.

Check this out, and try your rifle and ammo combination again.

New rifles have some tight tolerances in being manufactured. Also, with today's automated machining techniques, small burrs or other slight defects can easily happen, especially with semi-automatic firearms. Sometimes, certain ammunition simply will not function in a particular firearm. This is especially true with .22 hollow pointed bullets that have a larger flat area on the nose. If this is happening, buy a box of solid bullet cartridges, with a bit of a more pointed shaped bullet and try them. You might buy a couple of boxes of CCI Mini-Mags and run them through the rifle to get parts "worn in a bit and smoothed out."

But, first check and adjust those guide rods.
.
 
TDC said:
Cased cartridge ammunition discharged outside the confines of a barrel are harmless, nothing more than a firecracker.

Tdc
Click to expand...

Yes , the projectile might be harmless because there is no directed pressure, but as buffdog mentioned there is a fragmentation hazard and hammering on any live cartridge is generally acknowledged as stupid thing to do.
 
buffdog said:
Is there any way to fix these rounds? I'll just assume that standing the round up on a solid surface and lightly tapping the bullet into the shell with a hammer (to seat the bullet) is not a good idea...

YOU HAVE THAT RIGHT -- IT IS ABSOLUTELY A DUMB IDEA. .22 rimfire cartridges are very sensitive to shock, and smacking one with a hammer can easily set them off. Without anything to contain the gas pressure, the brass case tends to shatter into many small pieces, sort of a miniature hand grenade. This is harmful to your face, body, eyes and other parts that you might have attached to you slightly below your belt line. TAKE WARNING.
Click to expand...

I knew that, I said that as kind of a joke.

As to the rest of your post, that's helpful information and something I will check out. This is a used rifle and the bolt won't stay open unless there is a magazine installed, does that sound like it could be related?

Thank you.
 
Have had same issues with Remington ammo. But it shoots just fine in my ruger m77 22 other than the groups suck.
 
Yup. Real stupid. As a kid I hit a .22 blank (starter pistol type...the one with the acorn on the base) with a Hammer. A bit of shrapnel cleaved a gash on the index finger of the hand holding the Hammer.
 
hakx said:
Yup. Real stupid. As a kid I hit a .22 blank (starter pistol type...the one with the acorn on the base) with a Hammer. A bit of shrapnel cleaved a gash on the index finger of the hand holding the Hammer.
Click to expand...

Yup, stupid should hurt. Everyone can look back and remember some of those "look Frost" moments of stupid things you did as a kid.

It is unfortunate that 22lr is so hard to find that the companies, can make sub standard stuff and still sell it. Remington has sure fallen a long ways. I always thought of them as being a pip below Winchester, now i am not sure they are even ahead of Savage.
 
TDC said:
Cased cartridge ammunition discharged outside the confines of a barrel are harmless, nothing more than a firecracker.

Tdc
Click to expand...

May I suggest a small experiment that could back up your information. Take a .22 rimfire long rifle cartridge and a hammer. Put the cartridge, rim down, on a piece of steel with the bullet pointing upwards. Pick up the hammer, but first park your butt within a few inches of the .22 cartridge, so that the cartridge is BETWEEN YOUR LEGS and close to Big jim and the Twins, and just far enough away to give you clearance for the hammer swing. Then hit the cartridge with the hammer to set it off.

Please DO make sure your buddy, (wearing safety glasses of course,) takes a video of this amusing event so we can all enjoy it on Youtube. Actually your buddy might even make a few bucks if he sends it into America's funniest home videos. If you happen to be married, I am sure your Wife would be more than happy to take the Video.

Many years ago, there was a question in one of the gun magazines about the danger of ammunition cooking off in a fire. They took some cardboard boxes, about a foot square, and punched a hole for a wire in the center of the top. They then hung various cartridges from the wire, with a lighted candle underneath. A lot of them, including the .22 rimfire, blew out brass fragments that penetrated into and some through the cardboard of the box.

The explosion of a .22 cartridge might even be more restricted, as the weight of the head of the hammer will force the explosion a bit more to the sides.
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nowarningshot said:
It is unfortunate that 22lr is so hard to find that the companies, can make sub standard stuff and still sell it. Remington has sure fallen a long ways. I always thought of them as being a pip below Winchester, now i am not sure they are even ahead of Savage.
Click to expand...

I've edited my original post to correct this but it was Winchester ammo, not Remington ammo as can be seen in the following picture

WN22LR555HP.jpg
 
dryfire said:
Yes , the projectile might be harmless because there is no directed pressure, but as buffdog mentioned there is a fragmentation hazard and hammering on any live cartridge is generally acknowledged as stupid thing to do.
Click to expand...
So you are saying that the brass case will fragment explosively before the bullet (loose in this instance) pops out and releases the pressure? Ludicrous. I'm with TDC on this one. Have you heard of the Paco Kelly Accurizer? You smack live rounds on the nose with the round in a chamber (the Accurizer body) with a forming tool to reshape the bullet and I have never heard of an accidental discharge using this tool.
 
elimsprint said:
So you are saying that the brass case will fragment explosively before the bullet (loose in this instance) pops out and releases the pressure? Ludicrous. I'm with TDC on this one. Have you heard of the Paco Kelly Accurizer? You smack live rounds on the nose with the round in a chamber (the Accurizer body) with a forming tool to reshape the bullet and I have never heard of an accidental discharge using this tool.
Click to expand...

If that is your opinion, then perhaps you might like to try the little experiment above.
 
elimsprint said:
So you are saying that the brass case will fragment explosively before the bullet (loose in this instance) pops out and releases the pressure? Ludicrous. I'm with TDC on this one. Have you heard of the Paco Kelly Accurizer? You smack live rounds on the nose with the round in a chamber (the Accurizer body) with a forming tool to reshape the bullet and I have never heard of an accidental discharge using this tool.
Click to expand...

First , I said a "fragmentation hazard"

Second, with the hammer applying a force on the bullet at the instant of any ignition does not equate to a bullet being held loosely.

Third , the Paco Kelly tool holds the case perpendicular to a firm surface creating downward force equally on the circumference of the rim.
 
Have you guys seen 22s made?
Guess what they do last before packaging. They insert the bullet. I wouldnt use a hammer. Maybe a vise?
Something that could offer abit more protection if a case did go off.
Just my 2 cents.
Sorry OP for the yahoos on here that add nothing of use to the forum.
 
dryfire said:
Third , the Paco Kelly tool holds the case perpendicular to a firm surface creating downward force equally on the circumference of the rim.
Click to expand...

Yes, exactly what the OP was proposing to do in his first post that everybody said was so dangerous. And you have to whack the Paco tool quite hard to get it to work right unlike the OP's "lightly tapping" statement.
I just went up to the shop and smacked a few .22 Longs I had laying around. Out of 10 I only got 3 to even go off smacking them standing upright and hitting the nose. All they did was fizzle as the case was already ruptured long before the bullet reached the primer to ignite it. They did go off laying on their sides, 10 out of 10, but the only ones that may have had some shrapnel, and I use the term lightly, were the ones where the hammer covered the whole round thus pinning the bullet in place. They made a nice loud pop but there was no discernible wounds in the cardboard box I had surrounding them. If you just hit the case and not the bullet they just make a slight pop as the bullet leaves and then a fizzle of the remaining powder burning. The bullets on these ones left a couple of slight marks in the cardboard that might have hit hard enough to injure an unprotected eye but I doubt it was hard enough to leave a bruise on your skin. All in all a complete non-event IMO
 
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elimsprint
If you had 1% frequency of ignition causing fragments it seems it is enough to advocate against the practice. Let's hope manufacturers don't modify their caveats based on your anecdotal evidence.
 
dryfire said:
elimsprint
If you had 1% frequency of ignition causing fragments it seems it is enough to advocate against the practice. Let's hope manufacturers don't modify their caveats based on your anecdotal evidence.
Click to expand...

What evidence do you have that it is dangerous other than your own opinion formed from anecdotal evidence? At least I went and tried it out and made a determination that IMO crossing the road is more dangerous:) I'm not advocating anything, I am just saying that gently tapping the bullets is not very dangerous at all as proved by all the Paco Tool users, myself included, that hit live rounds on the nose on a regular basis. I don't advocate laying them on their side and hitting them but again, as I proved to myself this morning, that's not very dangerous either but as I see no valid reason to do that IMO it's a complete non-issue.
 
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