In the Market for an AR-10(.308 AR), best bang for the buck?
- Thread starter Brappp306
- Start date
They are, but it's impossible to tell at what price point it'll come out with if equipped with the same features as say an Armalite SASS 2nd gen ($3,000) or at $4,000. Or less. It's very hard to tell when there are no pictures of it yet (what the base rifle model will come with).
andrew3081
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
Then you'd be wrong.
Sorry, the XCR is a good rifle but the only reason it sells in Canada is the non restricted status. If the AR-10 was non restricted there would be no market for the XCR-M unless it came down in price by $1000.
My friend has an XCR-M and the best groups he has seen have been from handloads he built for the rifle and they were about 1.5 moa but if you were to shoot a few five shot groups the average would be worse.
Many AR-10's are capable of sub moa groups all day long. Nothing you do to an XCR-M will make it shoot as well as an AR.
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Last time I was in visiting at ATRS Rick said they had the design approved as non restricted and they had a few thousand rounds through the prototype and that when ready he was hoping to be able to price it around $3000 to compete with the other non restricted options we have now.
If he can get it out to us for that price I for one will be dropping $3000 for one.
I don't expect anything less than a really solid piece of kit from Rick. It'll be well built.
What will be interesting is what configuration it'll come out as for the said ~$3,000, i.e. w/ an A2 stock and a non-railled forehand (i.e. Armalite AR-10 Target model) to go along with the Modern Hunter naming or with an adjustable PRS stock, with a railed forehand (a la Armalite SASS), all of which are quite a bit more expensive. If it's the lader of the two, then I would think the price would be more around $3,500?
I'm in the market for an AR10 and the current pricing that Wolverine has for the new Armalite (and the DMPS G2) are very interesting, but the big advantage that Rick as is that his is NR. Should the ARs become non-restricted in Canada at some point in time in the future, then it's a whole different ballgame.
I'm not in a rush, but it would be good to know more about this particular rifle sooner rather than later because I don't see myself waiting until next fall.
andrew3081
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
So your saying all the Americans are wrong?????
XCR sells in the States and there is a market for them.
So I guess the Americans prove you wrong.
We already know the Ar10 is more accurate than XCR M. But maybe you should take a took at 'your friend's XCR M' and see why so many Americans buy the XCR M.
XCR are quick change barrel rifle (XCR actually have barrels for quick change, unlike other quick change barrel rifle that does not have manufacture made barrels for quick change) and a lot easier to clean than Ar10...that is 2 advantages there.
And how are Ar10 'better built'?
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I sincerely hope that in that statement, you are comparing your XCR-M rifle to AR10's of the same price point, that is $3,000.
There's no doubt that it's selling, but to what ratio w/ the AR10s?
1 to 5?
1 to 10?
1 to....50?
More?
I would like to see actual data on this rather than he-said-she-said.
American's buy all sorts of crap it doesn't mean said crap is any good. I believe if the truth were known AR-10's have and do out sell XCR-M's by over 100 to 1 as most American shooters wouldn't even know what an XCR was if asked (if you compare AR-15's to XCR-L's sold it's probably 1000 AR's sold to every 1 XCR-L), however almost all know what an AR is. Most American shooters have either held or shot an AR and all have at least seen one (well almost all), that's far from true with an XCR rifle especially the M model in the states. I've been to numerous gun stores all over Washington state and have not yet seen a XCR on display, however I've seen hundreds of AR's (even Wal-Mart's carry AR's in the U.S.A.).
As for an AR 10 being built better then a XCR-M, the barrel retention screw on a XCR is probably the biggest complaint as not only is it a very poor design it is cause for the poor accuracy too "and that's all I got to say about that".
Other key benefits of the AR-10 versus XCR-M:
1.) AR-10 is about half the price of the XCR-M (while still remaining higher quality).
2.) AR-10 weighs less then an XCR-M (with longer 20" barrel).
3.) You also get 60 years of development with the AR-10 as well (about 50 more then the XCR-M), should I continue.
As cr5 stated previously if AR's were NR there wouldn't even be a market for the XCR in Canada, well not unless it's price was cut in half. Why would they still sell? Well we Canadians aren't much different then our southern cousins, we are known to buy crap from time to time too.
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How much does an XCR sell for in the US? It's a different ball game down there.
Has Rob arms actually released any other caliber kits for the XCR-M yet? I know they are listed on the website and there is even an FRT number for them in Canada but I haven't seen any here yet.
As Ben states, compare an XCR-M to a comparably priced AR-10 like an LMT or KAC and you'll see how they are built better.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to bash the XCR-M, I like the rifle and if we weren't paying a premium for the NR status I'd probably own one. In my opinion the biggest flaw with the rifle is the barrel attachment system, it is the reason the rifle is not as accurate as it could be and Rob Arms should really look at ways to improve it.
The XCR is a good rifle but the AR is a great rifle backed up by many years of development and manufactured by numerous companies. The platform has stood the test of time and is still being produced and used every day.
And just so you understand something, every AR has a quick change barrel system, two pins and slap on a new upper and off you go. Faster than an XCR and more accurate every time.
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andrew3081
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
1.) AR-10 is about half the price of the XCR-M (while still remaining higher quality).
As cr5 stated previously if AR's were NR there wouldn't even be a market for the XCR in Canada, well not unless it's price was cut in half. Why would they still sell? Well we Canadians aren't much different then our southern cousins, we are known to buy crap from time to time too.
The price of Ar10 is not half of an XCR M. Even the most basic Ar10 goes for around $1500CAD. That is without any iron sites and plastic hand guards.
If you add iron site and better rail, then the price of Ar10 goes up.
And everything can be said about all NR rifles that are expensive in Canada. The Tavor, Swiss Arms, NR ACR, etc. But the fact is that there will always be people out there buying these guns no matter if Ar15/Ar10 become non restricted, so there will be a market for these guns.
First off, which XCR cost $3000? They are $2725 before tax.
So your saying the Christensen Arms Ar10 (which cost $3500) has better quality than XCR-M?
And have you actually looked at the XCR-M that was manufactured recently and compare it to an Ar10? Please educate me how an Ar10 has 'better build quality'. And not just saying it has a better quality.
It is probably true that Ar15/Ar10 sell more XCR. There are many reason for that...the cost of an XCR, supply and demand, and the fact that RA is a small company who can not mass produce rifles like other bigger manufacturers.
And if want the 'actual data' you can go search them yourself as your the one that is curious about the data.
From what I understand, there is no barrels yet for XCR-M, but history has shown that RA will come out with different caliber for the XCR-M.
Switching the upper for an AR will defeat the whole point of quick barrel change. If you want to carry extra weight for the additional upper so you can switch calibers, then that is great for you.
The reasons behind XCR's design is totally different than AR15 or Ar10. And I am sure if RA want a more accurate rifle, they will just have a rifle with permanently attached barrel. And just switch upper to switch calibers.
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If you're going to be nitpick of an unprooven firearm company (i.e Christensen Arms) then I'm going to do the same and remind you that in this wonderful county of ours, some are stuck paying 13 and 15% taxes, so on the $2,875 that some dealers are asking (i.e. Wolverine), it will ad up to $3,000+, but hey, nice try : )
Why are AR-10s in the like of LMT, Armalite and the likes better than RA in my opinion?
- The machining, finish and QC will be flawless
- Interoperability of all major parts and components amongst most manufacturers
- Availability of said parts when needed for replacement Vs from one manufacturer
- The aftermarket R&D of parts for the AR platform (for example, triggers) is solely aimed at ARs Vs RA's XCR's
- Customer support if need be Vs RA's jackassery attitude.
Typically AR10s are a manufacturer's top of the line rifle and will yield MOA or better accuracy. I haven't seen an XCR-M rifle shoot MOA or better.
How do you explain that LMT MRP barrels can be quickly swapped and yet retain accuracy?
An Armalite AR-10A Target can be purchased for $1,895 right now. Are you telling me that should ARs become NR tomorrow monring that you woudn't choose it over an XCR-M???
Regarding your point about carrying weight. How often have your treck for 4 hrs up a mountain with your XCR-L (as the M doesn't have a barrel change) with 2 other barrels in your backpack, with ammo for all 3 calibers, and shot all 3 calibers before coming back home?
And here's why IMO swapping uppers is a better choice than simply swapping barrels : when you're swapping uppers it's with the intention (or requirement) to meet a change of engagement distance (be it between different competitions, classes or it is part of your deployment package), from a CQB w/ red dot to a 20'' topped with a magnified glass on top. A quick barrel change doesn't allow you to do the same.
Why are AR-10s in the like of LMT, Armalite and the likes better than RA in my opinion?
- The machining, finish and QC will be flawless
- Interoperability of all major parts and components amongst most manufacturers
- Availability of said parts when needed for replacement Vs from one manufacturer
- The aftermarket R&D of parts for the AR platform (for example, triggers) is solely aimed at ARs Vs RA's XCR's
- Customer support if need be Vs RA's jackassery attitude.
Typically AR10s are a manufacturer's top of the line rifle and will yield MOA or better accuracy. I haven't seen an XCR-M rifle shoot MOA or better.
How do you explain that LMT MRP barrels can be quickly swapped and yet retain accuracy?
An Armalite AR-10A Target can be purchased for $1,895 right now. Are you telling me that should ARs become NR tomorrow monring that you woudn't choose it over an XCR-M???
Regarding your point about carrying weight. How often have your treck for 4 hrs up a mountain with your XCR-L (as the M doesn't have a barrel change) with 2 other barrels in your backpack, with ammo for all 3 calibers, and shot all 3 calibers before coming back home?
And here's why IMO swapping uppers is a better choice than simply swapping barrels : when you're swapping uppers it's with the intention (or requirement) to meet a change of engagement distance (be it between different competitions, classes or it is part of your deployment package), from a CQB w/ red dot to a 20'' topped with a magnified glass on top. A quick barrel change doesn't allow you to do the same.
Let's try to get a close comparison here. The LMT MWS for example Vs XCR-M. When on sale the 16" CL version was $2900. So a bit more than the XCR-M.
Both have monolithic uppers, free float CL barrels, quick change barrel system, ambi feautures and use the same mag system. On paper they are a pretty good comparison. I have looked over the XCR-M. I felt it was their flag ship, had nice changes over the earlier L rifles (Upper now opens up further like an AR). Shouldering both, the clear quality and non hobby gun is the LMT. The fast stock on the XCR-M wasn't bad. I like the look too but compared to the LMT Sopmod it was a distant second place. Triggers are both good. Ergos on XCR-M I really liked. But LMT also has ambi features (same lower as full ambi KAC SR25 minus ambi bolt release). For a quick look over the LMT wins in quality of build and functional feel.
The quick change barrel system. The XCR-M has had accuracy reports that are all over the place. The barrel retention system along with quick change barrel system are generally considered the weak part of the design and are suspected for accuracy issues. Also anyone bought a match grade SS barrel for this system? It comes with a CL barrel and so far there are medium heavy and lighter CL barrels. The LMT comes with a Mike Rock CL barrel that most report is 1moa capable with match ammo. There are also SS barrels and a couple different calibers. These can be bought right now. The barrel retention system on the LMT appears solid.
The LMT, KAC and AR10 make military models. All three have been fielded in combat as designated marksmen rifles. KAC SR25 with US, Armalite AR10 with Canada and LMT with UK. The LMT has also been chosen by the New Zealand military. Rumoured has it the RCMP will be replacing their ERT 308 bolt guns with the LMT as well.
So the internals are built for military and combat use on the LMT. The XCR-M has been billed as a battle rifle style firearm. Accuracy wasn't the goal. So not designed for DM/bolt action accuracy. How it would stand up in military or combat is anyone's guess. I would think it would be good due to the nature of the operating system. But it is still an unknown and any weaknesses would come to light.
Now in Canada the non restricted status gives the XCR-M a big edge. Frankly if both were non restricted the LMT would walk away with this comparison. The XCR-M would be a distant second. But the status is what it is and can't be ignored. I actually chose the RFB over the XCR-M. Mostly because while it also has many minuses vs an AR308, the non restricted status and extremely short length made it something different. I think the biggest hurdle the XCR-M has right now is it's position as looking like an AR308 but not being one. People that look at them, including me, want a non restricted AR10. That's not what the XCR-M was designed to be. While adding features to make it extremely versatile it still can't compete against the AR in terms of modilarity and versatility. You want a lead hose? No problem go with a shorter CL barrel. Want a precision rifle? Put on a SS barrel. The XCR currently can't change like that.
Every year or so I take another look at the XCR-M. It's a rifle I want to own. But it's currently not designed for my uses and doesn't at this time offer the adaptability to be modified for what I want. Hopefully some day. Current competition for the XCR-M is the RFB, SG542 and inexpensive M14/M305. Personally I find the XCR-M an odd mix. 1950's ideology for a 308 battle rifle using an ak/AR mix. That being said for some with the non restricted status the XCR-M is a good fit as is. Knowing the current strengths and limitations is a must when deciding. Plinking off range and hunting seem to be it's niche.
Both have monolithic uppers, free float CL barrels, quick change barrel system, ambi feautures and use the same mag system. On paper they are a pretty good comparison. I have looked over the XCR-M. I felt it was their flag ship, had nice changes over the earlier L rifles (Upper now opens up further like an AR). Shouldering both, the clear quality and non hobby gun is the LMT. The fast stock on the XCR-M wasn't bad. I like the look too but compared to the LMT Sopmod it was a distant second place. Triggers are both good. Ergos on XCR-M I really liked. But LMT also has ambi features (same lower as full ambi KAC SR25 minus ambi bolt release). For a quick look over the LMT wins in quality of build and functional feel.
The quick change barrel system. The XCR-M has had accuracy reports that are all over the place. The barrel retention system along with quick change barrel system are generally considered the weak part of the design and are suspected for accuracy issues. Also anyone bought a match grade SS barrel for this system? It comes with a CL barrel and so far there are medium heavy and lighter CL barrels. The LMT comes with a Mike Rock CL barrel that most report is 1moa capable with match ammo. There are also SS barrels and a couple different calibers. These can be bought right now. The barrel retention system on the LMT appears solid.
The LMT, KAC and AR10 make military models. All three have been fielded in combat as designated marksmen rifles. KAC SR25 with US, Armalite AR10 with Canada and LMT with UK. The LMT has also been chosen by the New Zealand military. Rumoured has it the RCMP will be replacing their ERT 308 bolt guns with the LMT as well.
So the internals are built for military and combat use on the LMT. The XCR-M has been billed as a battle rifle style firearm. Accuracy wasn't the goal. So not designed for DM/bolt action accuracy. How it would stand up in military or combat is anyone's guess. I would think it would be good due to the nature of the operating system. But it is still an unknown and any weaknesses would come to light.
Now in Canada the non restricted status gives the XCR-M a big edge. Frankly if both were non restricted the LMT would walk away with this comparison. The XCR-M would be a distant second. But the status is what it is and can't be ignored. I actually chose the RFB over the XCR-M. Mostly because while it also has many minuses vs an AR308, the non restricted status and extremely short length made it something different. I think the biggest hurdle the XCR-M has right now is it's position as looking like an AR308 but not being one. People that look at them, including me, want a non restricted AR10. That's not what the XCR-M was designed to be. While adding features to make it extremely versatile it still can't compete against the AR in terms of modilarity and versatility. You want a lead hose? No problem go with a shorter CL barrel. Want a precision rifle? Put on a SS barrel. The XCR currently can't change like that.
Every year or so I take another look at the XCR-M. It's a rifle I want to own. But it's currently not designed for my uses and doesn't at this time offer the adaptability to be modified for what I want. Hopefully some day. Current competition for the XCR-M is the RFB, SG542 and inexpensive M14/M305. Personally I find the XCR-M an odd mix. 1950's ideology for a 308 battle rifle using an ak/AR mix. That being said for some with the non restricted status the XCR-M is a good fit as is. Knowing the current strengths and limitations is a must when deciding. Plinking off range and hunting seem to be it's niche.
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Definately an interesting one. I love the premise of a non restricted AR accurate semi auto. I have no doubt it will be a decent design and build. But there are too many unknowns as it's only in prototype. Also I was a bit concerned with the initial indications of no dust shield etc. Took some convincing on that thread. The idea that other than the AR no other rifles came to mind also made me think that decision wasn't thought through. STG44, AR, PS90 all have external dust shields. Earlier designs all have a cover which also keeps crud out. Swiss Arms PE90, SVT40, SKS, anything HK etc. The only rifles that came to mind without a dust shield were the DPMS LR308 target and some slick sided AR15 rifles for entry models. But that was sorted out I think for the new ATR rifle. Again it's wait and see.
My ultimate sport rifle would be what ATR described for their rifle, only in a bullpup. 20" SS match barrel, DI semi auto, AR trigger or match grade of another style, easy to get mags and where applicable AR furniture. This would be for a hunting/target/varmint semi auto.
Wait for it. It will happen. The RFB trigger was a start on the breakthrough. With the US getting Tavor rifles you can start to see the change. There are a couple high end triggers for drop in already thanks to the Tavor popularity in the US.
A lot of the traditional bull pup flaws have been disapearing slowly. We just need all the advanceds to co
e together on one firearm.
