Hunter killed by bear, WRITE a letter to change Wilderness ATC 'rules'..

There sure is a lot of ignorance in this thread, not the least of which being the bear "expert" advice that buckshot is a preferred ammunition for bear defense.
Track, I think you're just so in tune with nature that your mere presence in the wild wards off any potential bear encounters. Enviable!
 
I personally don't want to see this country Americanized, with over liberal gun laws..


Wow....what a statement. You'd rather live having the gov't tell you what you can own vs. being free and deciding for yourself. Id be ashamed of admitting such a statement.
The only liberal I see in this thread is you.
 
There sure is a lot of ignorance in this thread, not the least of which being the bear "expert" advice that buckshot is a preferred ammunition for bear defense.
Track, I think you're just so in tune with nature that your mere presence in the wild wards off any potential bear encounters. Enviable!

Close, but i'am sure it has more to do with the fact that there's some sh!t that a bear just won't eat.
 
When it comes down to it, I support peoples right to carry in the wilderness.

Do I think a handgun is a good tool for bear defence, or that bears pose an especially large threat to hunters in the vast majority of situations. I guess preparing for the worst is all well and good, but thousands of people do just fine every year in the rockies with bear spray or nothing. This is a one off tragedy, not a situation that happens every day.

Not to stir the pot, but have any of those who would carry a handgun in the bush ever had a close encounter with a bear or cougar?
 
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Not to stir the pot, but have any of those who would carry a handgun in the bush ever had a close encounter with a bear or cougar?

Nothing mind blowing and sure some have better stories, but once when I was at moose camp we had a cow hanging and I walked outside to toss the dishwater and turned around to see a big boar at the edge of the lawn eying up the moose with me in between and smelling the air and the ground and rocking back and forth..... I made a whack of noise an dit slowly walked off.... but sure wished I had my rifle with me at the time...... If I had been able to carry a handgun at least I would have had something......
 
This is obviously a tragedy. But it is far from a common occurrence, I was raised in that area and animal awareness among residents is generally pretty high in towns like Canmore. There are of course issues with tourists. Not to say the individual who was mauled was not an experienced woodsman, as he likely was if he solo sheep hunting picklejar.

I know I am a noob here but, I largely agree with "track", I will voice my opinion a little differently:
I work in the bush and have had encounters with bears and cougars. I always carry bear spray. I have doubted its effectiveness in some situations with lots of heavy cover and pounding rain, but I feel these situations would also limit the effectiveness of a firearm.

In situations where a firearm was to be used for defence against a wild animal (and these would be crazy situations, I have worked with biologists who did bear den surveys in interior BC without firearms) I would far prefer a shotgun loaded with slugs or a high caliber carbine with optics tailored for quick acquisition to a handgun. If a bear is mauling you, it is incredibly unlikely you will have the ability to draw your high caliber handgun and shoot it one handed into anything but your own femoral artery.

Hunting offers a more dangerous scenario because you are often moving silently in optimal habitat for bears, and may be stalking the bear's prey in some seasons or the bear itself. Gutpiles, gunshots etc. attract some learned bears. Once again I don't feel like a handgun is optimal for bear defence, or that having a handgun or even a 12 gauge defender will stop a bear in the circumstances where they attack humans. Sows with cubs will always be extremely dangerous, handgun or not, and if your life lies in the split second it takes to fire bear spray or a firearm there is always a chance they will fail you.

How effectively a firearm can stop an impending attack is dependent upon bullet placement, not upon which type of firearm it comes from. Gun handling under threat is a study which too few take the time to consider, but the advantage lies with the individual whose mindset is prepared in advance of having a problem. The premise in the bear protection scenario is simple enough, a bear cannot hurt you if it cannot touch you, so your efforts must be towards stopping its forward progression. Yet the hunter is predisposed to a chest shot, because the morality of the hunt demands that he select a target which is easy to hit and which will produce a humane death in a short period of time. You need a mindset which gets in the way of that. A bear hit solidly in the chest with any viable rifle bullet is a dead bear, but a chest shot bear is not a stopped bear, and much can happen before his brain becomes sufficiently deprived of oxygen to stop him. Defensive shooting follows a different playbook; a humane kill is secondary to a stop. If I have to stop a bear with a handgun, I know the situation is extremely serious, and I will not shoot early, but I must shoot before he makes contact. First there is the hope that the bear will turn off, and secondly the closer the bear is, the better the chance is of placing my bullet precisely. I am not shooting at a 1000 pound bear, I am shooting at the center of a 100 pound head, and a handgun bullet from a .357, a 10 mm, a .44 magnum or .45 Colt is more than enough for the through and through penetration of a 100 pound target. The shot is challenging; the bear's head is massively wide, but the brain is only the width of the snout, and is located in the shallow space between the back of the eyes and the ears. Secondly, the bear's head might be in motion, although in serious attacks, the bear is normally focused intently on his target, and his head is for the most part stationary. I want the minimum range, a matter of feet, not yards. If my shot hits high, it should be inline with the spine. If the bear is circling rather than coming straight in, breaking a big bone like the hip will give you time to a fast lethal followup.

Last year there was a young girl who was attacked by a polar bear at the other end of our street. Her recounting of the incident is precise and detailed. She knew what was happening, as it happened to her, including her scalping, without any sensation of pain. Given that level of awareness, and calm demeanor, a mauling victim who was armed would have been fully capable of effectively defending themselves with a handgun, but not a long gun.

Now as you say, you may not prevail. The bear might win. But how is that any reason for being legally disarmed, with the one firearm that might save you?
 
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Once while working for a company that did not allow the carry of firearms I was stalked by a cougar with a group of two other people, we got to the truck and the cougar walked out onto the fsr bold as day. I also had a young male grizz cross a trail in front of me stand up and trundle off, not too far from where this incident occurred.

The cougar is actually what inspired me to renew my PAL, I feel like bears are a lot more predictable. I always work in groups scattered over a small area doing forestry survey so ricochet is a major concern.

First there is the hope that the bear will turn off, and secondly the closer the bear is, the better the chance is of placing my bullet precisely.

I feel like this why I use spray, no chance of wounding a false charging bear, and a 30 foot cone of pepper spray is a lot more accurate than me with a pistol.

But as they different strokes for different folks
 
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Once while working for a company that did not allow the carry of firearms I was stalked by a cougar with a group of two other people, we got to the truck and the cougar walked out onto the fsr bold as day. I also had a young male grizz cross a trail in front of me stand up and trundle off, not too far from where this incident occurred.

The cougar is actually what inspired me to renew my PAL, I feel like bears are a lot more predictable. I always work in groups scattered over a small area doing forestry survey so ricochet is a major concern.

Given that scenario, hiring a bear monitor whose sole responsibility is the security of the workers on the site is prudent. This requires an observant individual who is a cool hand, able to make decisions under duress, and has an ability to shoot precisely at the correct target. He should be armed with a cracker shell gun and a scoped rifle, particularly if workers are spread out over a quarter mile or so.
 
If I want a handgun-like portable firearm that'll always be with me and yet leave my hands free to do stuff like I do when I'm helping out on my Kenora friends trapline I carry a Chiappa Mare's Laig (12.5" bbl) in 44 Mag in a leather holster I had made for it by Couchise leather products stateside.
It's as close as we'll ever get to carrying handguns in Canada without an ATC.
An old friend from Timmins is a geologist/prospector and there are fewer conditions on my prenuptial agreement than on that monstrosity of an ATC he was issued.
He's has a pristine personal background (not even a speeding ticket), a MSc in geology, a BASc in Mining Engineering from Queens and has been a prospector for over 30 years and yet they hummed and hawed about issuning him an ATC.
If he farts in the wrong direction while carrying his S+W model 29 in the bush he's probably in violation of one or more conditions on that ATC.
Can't be bothered with all that fracking hassle.
The Chiappa Mare's Laig and a black bear licence (available after Aug 15) circumvents all the :bsFlag: of an ATC.
The 240 grain projectiles fired from the Mare's Laig in 44 Mag have a ME of over 1700 ft-lbs which is much more than a bullet fired from the same carridge coming from a 6" model 29 revolver.
I chronographed the results myself.
 
Originally Posted by track
I personally don't want to see this country Americanized, with over liberal gun laws..

Wow....what a statement. You'd rather live having the gov't tell you what you can own vs. being free and deciding for yourself. Id be ashamed of admitting such a statement.
The only liberal I see in this thread is you.

Another Liberal "manchurian candidate".
The truly brainwashed don't even realize that they have been brainwashed because 40 years of mind control has shifted their psychological norms.
If a lie is repeated enough times it becomes the truth.
A walking testament to the effect of many years of the Liberal/CBC anti-gun, anti-American mass media propoganda conspiracy.
He's more to be pitied than censored.
 
Not to stir the pot, but have any of those who would carry a handgun in the bush ever had a close encounter with a bear or cougar?

YES!! Mi amigo just had a meeting with our local MP to discuss this very issue... He is an "adventure biker", and he and his son routinely takes their uber-expensive KTM dirtbikes into the wild for 3-5 days of motorbike based camping. He is often WAAAAY out there. He currently carries a Mossberg 500 in an over the shoulder scabbard, which is unwieldy and looks crazy, but legal. He has a Taurus Raging Bull in .454, but isn't allowed to carry this.

He and his son have both been confronted by Grizzlies and Black bears multiple times. They've always been able to use bear bangers or pepper spray to cover a retreat, but the Mossberg is so cumbersome he wouldn't be able to defend himself if the bears had charged.

Over the past five years I've come face-to-face with bears six times just hiking local trails in the Fraser Valley!!!! I found myself wishing I had a 629 with me...

Granted, we're "out there" in the home of the bears, but would we rather no one left the city?

Why can a prospector get an ATC, but an outdoor enthusiast can't? Is his life worth less?
..
 
Why can a prospector get an ATC, but an outdoor enthusiast can't? Is his life worth less?
..

One of the arguments made is that a long gun is cumbersome for someone working with their hands, while it's not for a hiker, biker,etc. To be approved for a wilderness ATC you have to convince the CFO that a non restricted won't work well in your line of work, and I don't believe getting one issued for recreational activities is in the books at all.
It boils down to the stigma handguns have in Canada, thanks to the indoctrination of the general public by the media and politicians or perhaps even the inferiority complex exhibited by many stating the reason "we won't be like Americans."
 
One of the arguments made is that a long gun is cumbersome for someone working with their hands, while it's not for a hiker, biker,etc. To be approved for a wilderness ATC you have to convince the CFO that a non restricted won't work well in your line of work, and I don't believe getting one issued for recreational activities is in the books at all.
It boils down to the stigma handguns have in Canada, thanks to the indoctrination of the general public by the media and politicians or perhaps even the inferiority complex exhibited by many stating the reason "we won't be like Americans."

Wow... your subtle jab is in full swing today..... lol.... well done....
 
As has been alluded to getting an ATC is very difficult, everyone I have met who has one received it a long time ago.

PE the cougar situation actually occurred in the canyon. Bear density in the valley could be exaggerated by the boldness of the bears because of the berry farms and contact with humans. I didn't see too many while working up there but I was at a higher elevation while salmon were running so a bear would have to be pretty stupid to not be waterside. I don't know about recreational use areas in the valley, but the FSR's and secondary growth are literally blanketed with huckleberries, bear paradise.

I feel like a defender inside the back of a cruiser vest or slung over the shoulder is only slightly heavier than a large caliber pistol and for me at least far easier to shoot.
 
Western civilization is such a paranoid society. In this thread, immoral selfish impulsive action for extra gun rights is pursued. The victim of the bear mauling is not even buried, nor the investigation concluded by law enforcement officials, however lets carry handguns...........shame on you. I just shake my head with the mentality of some.
 
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Western civilization is such a paranoid society. In this thread, immoral selfish impulsive action for extra gun rights is pursued. The victim of the bear mauling is not even buried, nor the investigation concluded by law enforcement officials, however lets carry handguns...........shame on you. I just shake my head with the mentality of some.






















of some o
Shame on you, track.
You can shake or spin your liberal head as fast as you want. But no one buy your garbage here. You can learn ruminating to chew your own distasteful junk.
 
Western civilization is such a paranoid society. In this thread, immoral selfish impulsive action for extra gun rights is pursued. The victim of the bear mauling is not even buried, nor the investigation concluded by law enforcement officials, however lets carry handguns...........shame on you. I just shake my head with the mentality of some.

Paranoia relates to distrust of others. Hardly linked to a person's desire to have tools to defend themselves in a bear attack.
The proof of the requirement to many relates directly to Mr. Cross's unfortunate encounter.

And as much as you are appalled by this discussion - I view it that most of the folks here are looking for realistic ways to prevent this type of thing.

What is really unpalatable is the self righteous approach you take to the notion. It demeans the seriousness of the situation (including those just killed), and flies in the face of anyone I have dealt with in the firearms community as far as the slagging towards "America", "Dirty Harry" etc .

And my guess is the vast majority of folks in this community are shaking there head at you.
 
More armed cowboys in the bush, it's not the bear's, I would fear then. The open carry dream lives on, there is always a boogie man, around every corner.
 
Western civilization is such a paranoid society. In this thread, immoral selfish impulsive action for extra gun rights is pursued. The victim of the bear mauling is not even buried, nor the investigation concluded by law enforcement officials, however lets carry handguns...........shame on you. I just shake my head with the mentality of some.

Couldn't of been said better by Piers Morgan himself; the master of standing on graves when he is losing an argument. Look in the mirror before trying to shame others.
 
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