Tavor accuracy

[mikethebike]

Agreed. 3-4 moa at best. People claiming better accuracy with a Tavor are: a) delusional b) blowing smoke up your skirt to justify their purchase. They are a pretty cool little rifle, so if you purchase one without the expectation of better than some of the claimed accuracy reports, the chances of being satisfied with the purchase will be far greater.

I disagree, and as much as I proved what I stated, not claimed, I guess sone people are not interested in factual evidence. I spent a whole day at the range doing that test, and posted all my targets to prove what i'm saying. You're basically calling me a liar, which is really insulting!

I guess i have one of those magical unicorn camelot merlin blessed tavors then again maybe not.

The rifle shoots 1.75 moa with vmax! I even made a group of 1.3 inch with the vmax. 1.75 1.3 1.75 1.5 The holes are right there on the target to prove it. if you cant shoot 1.75 moa with yours with good ammo maybe there are other factors than the rifle and ammo.

 

[Master-G]

I guess i have one of those magical unicorn camelot merlin blessed tavors then again maybe not.

I don't know, Mike. Maybe you've got a really well put-together Tavor, or perhaps you've brewed up a very good load. You've got to admit, though, that there are far more shooters here that report 3-4 MOA that report sub-2 MOA. With the same scope and same ammunition I was consistently 3–4MOA with the two Tavors I've owned and 2–3 MOA with my FS2000.

 

[Melnibonean]

. With the same scope and same ammunition I was consistently 3–4MOA with the two Tavors I've owned and 2–3 MOA with my FS2000.

Is this common for all bullpups (to be less accurate than a "normal" rifle), despite having the same length or even longer barrels in them?

 

[84wh1]

I never measured this here, but this is what I got using a cheap sightmark red dot prone at 50 meters. I was pretty happy with it. This was using federal 5.56

 

[TheArmyMan204]

Is this common for all bullpups (to be less accurate than a "normal" rifle), despite having the same length or even longer barrels in them?

Not at all. With an aug you can shoot the nuts off a flea @100 yards. But in general bullpups are meant for cqb type shooting so designers don't put too much thought into what it can do at long range. My thoughts anyways.

 

[beltfed]

I disagree, and as much as I proved what I stated, not claimed, I guess sone people are not interested in factual evidence. I spent a whole day at the range doing that test, and posted all my targets to prove what i'm saying. You're basically calling me a liar, which is really insulting!

I guess i have one of those magical unicorn camelot merlin blessed tavors then again maybe not.

The rifle shoots 1.75 moa with vmax! I even made a group of 1.3 inch with the vmax. 1.75 1.3 1.75 1.5 The holes are right there on the target to prove it. if you cant shoot 1.75 moa with yours with good ammo maybe there are other factors than the rifle and ammo.

Look, I'm not in this to start a bun fight. The photos you posted in the other thread clearly indicate lack of consistency with point of impact from one 'group' to the next using the same ammo. Posting a photo showing 4 rounds going inside 2" and saying 'HAHA! Look here's your proof, it'll do it consistently' is hardly conclusive. I personally don't care what justifications someone makes for their guns (we don't need no stinkin' justification), but let's be honest.

 

[Master-G]

Is this common for all bullpups (to be less accurate than a "normal" rifle), despite having the same length or even longer barrels in them?

I would say, generally, yes. Most bullpups have lightweight barrels and especially less-than-optimal triggers and are usually somewhat less "practically accurate" than a good-quality non-bullpup rifle of equivalent value. I'm curious, The ArmyMan204, when was the last time you shot an AUG? When I last fired one in the 1980s the trigger was long and creepy...fun to shoot for sure, but I sure wasn't shooting any flea testicles with the one I tried.

 

[Bracketman]

I've lost all faith in pictures of groupings after "Caramel" has come onto the forums. After all, I've seen proof that a Benelli MR1 can shoot a specific Ameba on the other side of the galaxy.

The greatest proof is doing it yourself or seeing it in person done by someone else -- with repeated results. Video is sketchy unless it is done in real-time and you can clearly see the target is X distance away with (preferably) two or more cameras set up to watch the shooter and the target(s). Also, must be repeatable.

And to answer the other question, some bullpups are very capable of great accuracy. Not going into a "bullpup war" on here as to say from personal experience which is more accurate, but I would say the Tavor does what it is intended to do by IDF standards.

 

[Master-G]

I've lost all faith in pictures of groupings after "Caramel" has come onto the forums. After all, I've seen proof that a Benelli MR1 can shoot a specific Ameba on the other side of the galaxy.

LOL!

Not going into a "bullpup war" on here as to say from personal experience which is more accurate, but I would say the Tavor does what it is intended to do by IDF standards.

Agreed 100%. When I bought my first FS2000 I was disappointed that it didn't shoot as well as the "1 MOA" groups that I'd seen posted on other forums. I sold it but eventually bought another—I now know these aren't 1 MOA rifles but they're really fun-to-shoot rifles. It's the same with Tavors—they're not designed to be sub-MOA precision rifles. Once owners and potential owners accept that Tavors are not precision rifles but are reliable, fun-to-shoot rifles capable of pretty good accuracy they'll be happier.

To scott_r: if you're looking to improve the accuracy you're getting with the XCR by switching to a Tavor you're probably going to be disappointed. But, if you like the idea of the Tavor—cool, reliable, short, handy, fun-to-shoot then go for it!

 

[mikethebike]

Look, I'm not in this to start a bun fight. The photos you posted in the other thread clearly indicate lack of consistency with point of impact from one 'group' to the next using the same ammo. Posting a photo showing 4 rounds going inside 2" and saying 'HAHA! Look here's your proof, it'll do it consistently' is hardly conclusive. I personally don't care what justifications someone makes for their guns (we don't need no stinkin' justification), but let's be honest.

4 groups of 4 rounds under 2 moa using vmax, 4 groups not 1 group

 

[DILLIGAF]

Ive been posting my sh!tty groups on this forum for a while. No ones ever accused me of lying... lol... They probably feel sorry for my shooting abilities.

I cant wait to post pictures of my Tavor accuracy. And the way things are going, it might be Sunday at Victoria fish and Game. ill do 50 yards 100 yards and 200 yards ( if I can hit it... lol )

The sh!tty part will be finding ammo. If you are in Victoria and want to try it out let me know...

Cheers

 

[beltfed]

4 groups of 4 rounds under 2 moa using vmax, 4 groups not 1 group

Ok, one has 6 rounds in it (or is that a flier from the other group on the page?), two have four rounds and not surprisingly, the best group has 3 rounds in it. Not to split hairs, but hardly conclusive.

 

[mikethebike]

Ok, one has 6 rounds in it (or is that a flier from the other group on the page?), two have four rounds and not surprisingly, the best group has 3 rounds in it. Not to split hairs, but hardly conclusive.

fine ill pick up a bunch of vmax again if i can find it here somewhere, and ill get you ten groups of 5 shots. would that be conclusive average or would you rather i do 20 groups of 5 shots.

 

[cr5]

I don't know, Mike. Maybe you've got a really well put-together Tavor, or perhaps you've brewed up a very good load. You've got to admit, though, that there are far more shooters here that report 3-4 MOA that report sub-2 MOA. With the same scope and same ammunition I was consistently 3–4MOA with the two Tavors I've owned and 2–3 MOA with my FS2000.

I think a big reason most guys on here can't get better than 3-4 moa is because they 1. don't know how to shoot, and by that I mean don't know how to properly support the rifle or don't use proper breathing and trigger control 2. don't realize that every barrel is going to respond differently to a type of ammo so they think that just because Mike's rifle shot 1.75 moa with V-max that their rifle should do the same 3. Don't have a clue and use cheap bulk surplus ammo and expect it to group well or worst of all 4. Are using Norinco ammo and expecting consistency.

I'm not trying to say the Tavor is actually capable of much better than 2 moa but there are a lot of factors that go into making good consistent groups and I doubt there are many people on here that could consistently make tight groups even if they were given my 223 bolt action that can shoot 5 rounds touching at 100 yards if the shooter does their part.
If you are shooting off your elbows or using your body as part of the support system for the rifle then forget about tight groups.

Don't get confused and think that just because the Tavor or any other rifle costs over $2000 that it should magically be able to shoot 1 moa or even close to it. These rifles are doing exactly what the designers intended them to do. If you can hit a 12-16 inch plate at 300 yards it's working perfectly as designed. These are battle rifles and I've never seen it stated anywhere from the manufacturer that they can double as DMR or sniper rifles.

Enjoy it for what it is and don't worry about what it isn't. If you want sub moa then buy a quality bolt action and learn to handload, bring your Tavor with you when you go shooting for some fun while you're letting the barrel of your precision rig cool off.
This goes for most battle rifle designs, very few are capable of consistently shooting 1 moa or better.

Master G, this was not aimed directly at you, I only quoted you because you had similar comments to a few others. I have no idea how you support your rifle or if you do or don't know what your doing behind the trigger. It was more to try to answer some of your questions than to say why your rifle doesn't shoot better than 3-4 moa

 

[ogradyrw]

15rds of Hornady 75gr match grade ammo @ 100m with a JP 18" upper 1/8 twist and ACOG TA31CH 4x
I pulled a few to the left, adjusted 2 clicks right and two clicks up after the 1st 5 rds

This was at 50m the 1st day I shot the rifle off the bench Indoor with an ELCAN Specter 1-4x on the 4x setting, using PCM X-Tac 55gr:

 

[beltfed]

fine ill pick up a bunch of vmax again if i can find it here somewhere, and ill get you ten groups of 5 shots. would that be conclusive average or would you rather i do 20 groups of 5 shots.

You do what you want and say what you want. I've owned a Tavor and dumped it. Outside of CQB and a 3 gun match I've only witnessed one Tavor at a Service rifle competition and it choked big.
They offer a decent advantage with respect to positional shooting over a conventional set up, so if they actually shot like you claim, you'd see these showing up and holding their own at NSCC.

 

[beltfed]

I think a big reason most guys on here can't get better than 3-4 moa is because they 1. don't know how to shoot, and by that I mean don't know how to properly support the rifle or don't use proper breathing and trigger control 2. don't realize that every barrel is going to respond differently to a type of ammo so they think that just because Mike's rifle shot 1.75 moa with V-max that their rifle should do the same 3. Don't have a clue and use cheap bulk surplus ammo and expect it to group well or worst of all 4. Are using Norinco ammo and expecting consistency.
...this was not aimed directly at you, I only quoted you because you had similar comments to a few others. I have no idea how you support your rifle or if you do or don't know what your doing behind the trigger. It was more to try to answer some of your questions than to say why your rifle doesn't shoot better than 3-4 moa

So if this is levelled at me, I can say with confidence based on my experience shooting competitions in Western Canada against some pretty damned fine opposition, (not to blow my own horn, but to definitively answer your question) that I'm an above average shooter. With over 25 years behind the trigger, 12 years in the military, a small arms instructor and coach, I think I have a pretty decent handle on the principles of marksmanship. Rifle to rifle and barrel to barrel granted there is going to be some variation, but when you have most people claiming a realistic 3-4 moa and someone posts a few groups and claims it is half that, the BS meter Starts ringing. Ammo? I tried pretty much everything under the sun and stuff hidden under rocks, and lots of well proven hand loads, so that isn't likely to be it either.
I'd suggest keep testing and report what it is, not what you want it to be....

 

[JBD]

I am a proficient shooter but the tavor was a difficult rifle to shoot to its mechanical accuracy. The short sight radius meant that some sort of an optic was required, and the trigger pull is heavy. I did the spring mod in the trigger housing and use an Aimpoint pro. Set up this way mine shoots around 2 MOA.

 

[TheArmyMan204]

Last time I shot my tavor for accuracy I used American eagle 55gr. I don't have a range so I laid prone in grass (comfortable) and used a backpack as a front rest. I was getting an honest 2.5" @110 yards consistently. The guys who are shooting off benches and getting 4moa or worse must be using norc ammo or just shooting like sh!t

Obviously rifles vary in accuracy from the factory but I can't see a company like iwi putting out rifles with such widely varying accuracy. Seem they're qc is pretty good.

 

[mikethebike]

Last time I shot my tavor for accuracy I used American eagle 55gr. I don't have a range so I laid prone in grass (comfortable) and used a backpack as a front rest. I was getting an honest 2.5" @110 yards consistently. The guys who are shooting off benches and getting 4moa or worse must be using norc ammo or just shooting like sh!t

Obviously rifles vary in accuracy from the factory but I can't see a company like iwi putting out rifles with such widely varying accuracy. Seem they're qc is pretty good.

Yep I get 2.5 to 3 inches out of that ammo as well, so i guess according to some here we both have magical unicorn tavors...