Handicapping

M

maetsack

Regular
EE Expired
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Has anyone ever done any handicapping for rimfire?
I'm not talking about an official match, but just for a fun, in-house match wherein a shooter wanted to shoot their M&P22 instead of a M&P9.
Has anyone ever worked out a reasonable handicap that levels the playing field for a rimfire and centerfire shooter?

  • Time added to the 22LR shooter per stage?
  • Total percentage multiplier?
  • 22LR required to get additional hits?
Any constructive input would be appreciated.

PS - Don't get your panties in a twist over this. It's for fun and to keep the playing field level, nothing more.
If you are so rigid that you can't see a place for rimfire in your centerfire world, keep it to yourself.
 
maetsack said:
Has anyone ever done any handicapping for rimfire?
I'm not talking about an official match, but just for a fun, in-house match wherein a shooter wanted to shoot their M&P22 instead of a M&P9.
Has anyone ever worked out a reasonable handicap that levels the playing field for a rimfire and centerfire shooter?

  • Time added to the 22LR shooter per stage?
  • Total percentage multiplier?
  • 22LR required to get additional hits?
Any constructive input would be appreciated.

PS - Don't get your panties in a twist over this. It's for fun and to keep the playing field level, nothing more.
If you are so rigid that you can't see a place for rimfire in your centerfire world, keep it to yourself.
Click to expand...

Why would you need to handicap it? Just score them as a separate division.
 
A separate rimfire pistol division might be a great way to attract more shooters. I'm sure there's a lot of people who are unsure about being at the level of taking a black badge course. If you start from low ready anyone with a .22 pistol can play. Just have them stow the gun in their range bag as if it was a holster. Glock Shooting Sports Foundation uses range bags for their matches. Someone who has never shot a course of fire may get hooked if they find out how fun it is. Gamers like myself would love to run in that division to focus on movement and stage approach.

As for handicapping I don't think you can actually take round count as a determining factor. You'll probably end up with similar times across all divisions regardless of caliber. I used to go to an action rifle match and the .22lr division times were nearly the same as the center fire. Center fire top scores often beat rimfire.

When is the .22 match?

DavesNotHere
 
Separate division. Done.

You don't apply a handicap to revolver shooters compared to semi-auto shooters... they just compete against other wheel guns. Rimfire should be the same thing.
 
A separate division only works if you have significant numbers spread evenly across all divisions. But if I only have three 22 shooters on a particular night, they can never attempt to gauge themselves against the other shooters.

So the question still stands? Anyone come up with a reasonable modifier to allow you to mix divisions?
 
maetsack said:
A separate division only works if you have significant numbers spread evenly across all divisions. But if I only have three 22 shooters on a particular night, they can never attempt to gauge themselves against the other shooters.

So the question still stands? Anyone come up with a reasonable modifier to allow you to mix divisions?
Click to expand...

Not trying to argue, but separate divisions always works if you have any number of competitors shooting in any number of divisions. No one can gauge themselves against other shooters with vastly different equipment.

So the answer still stands. Apples to apples, oranges to oranges.
 
maetsack said:
A separate division only works if you have significant numbers spread evenly across all divisions. But if I only have three 22 shooters on a particular night, they can never attempt to gauge themselves against the other shooters.

So the question still stands? Anyone come up with a reasonable modifier to allow you to mix divisions?
Click to expand...


I doubt there is reasonable modifier...
In past ODPL/Teamhoser matches I've been asked "can I shoot then match with my .22?

The answer was always "no" for a few reasons.
The first and most common reason was that the (new) guy with the .22 had zero experience with action shooting and by default did not have any acceptable training that would allow him to "run & gun" on the ranges we were using. This may be different for others, but my club(s) require that for action shooting events shooters have some sort of formal training.
Another reason was that .22 wouldn't have the punch needed to activate the steel targets.
Again... If you're not using steel then this isn't an issue, but... We do.
Same thing when guys ask about using their PCC's for our multi-gun matches... Not a "no", but... I say if you wish, but don't expect the CoF's or targets to be modified to suit your gun.
If you can hit a 4" plate at 100yrds with your 9mm JR Carbine... Great, but if you can't don't complain.

My most compelling reason for not allowing .22... And this is where I come off as a ####, but.... Try to see it from my POV as match Dir.

It's just too much work to tailor a whole match so a couple of guys can play. I'm all for introducing people to the games, but they have to at least bring the right gear to the game we set up and run.
I mean... I wanna play golf with you guys, but all I have is this hockey stick. Will that be okay?

That's how I see this issue in so far as matches go... An informal night at the range with whoever shows up... Well, Does it matter?

Maybe ask the center fire guys at the shoot what they think would be fair?
My guess is few will care... Maybe add a couple of seconds to replace the draw time... If they're not using a holster
 
667 said:
blah, blah, blah... And this is where I come off as a ####,.... more words
Click to expand...

####...

Maybe count alphas as 5 pts but everything else is reduced in value, like minor, minor scoring?
The 22lr won't produce more than a 50 power factor, and that's with CCI stingers at max rated muzzle velocity.
That's 40% of 125PF
Maybe score C's as 2 pts and D's as .5?

As others have said, simplest way is to have their own division.
 
pauls said:
####...

Maybe count alphas as 5 pts but everything else is reduced in value, like minor, minor scoring?
The 22lr won't produce more than a 50 power factor, and that's with CCI stingers at max rated muzzle velocity.
That's 40% of 125PF
Maybe score C's as 2 pts and D's as .5?

As others have said, simplest way is to have their own division.
Click to expand...

you would have to score alphas as less than 5 points, getting two alphas would be laughably easy compared to even minor pf.

just do their own division, if there is only one or two shooters, so what. There is no reasonable way to compare a score with such a huge equipment advantage, same way production shooters and open shooters cant compare
 
Ok, maybe I'm not making myself clear. I already know the reasons why we don't do and I don't care. I want to know if there is a way to do it.

Different divisions are not the answers, adjusting the CoF is not the answer (I'm not using steel plates anyway so I don't care). I'm looking for thoughts on modifying scores to allow as may people to compare their performance against as many others. That's all. It doesn't have to be perfect and we aren't doing this for money so save the reasons for why we can't do it for another day.

How can we do this???
 
i like doing something like adding rounds for rimfire. for example, 3 or 4 body hits to score or 2 head instead of 2 and 1.

if you are going points down for not neutralizing then do something like that.

if you plan on scoring targets ipsc style, then that's another can.
 
maetsack said:
Ok, maybe I'm not making myself clear. I already know the reasons why we don't do and I don't care. I want to know if there is a way to do it.

Different divisions are not the answers, adjusting the CoF is not the answer (I'm not using steel plates anyway so I don't care). I'm looking for thoughts on modifying scores to allow as may people to compare their performance against as many others. That's all. It doesn't have to be perfect and we aren't doing this for money so save the reasons for why we can't do it for another day.

How can we do this???
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone's going to give you a solution you'll be happy with...
We've tried.
The best would be a separate div., but... I guess not.
 
maetsack said:
...It doesn't have to be perfect and we aren't doing this for money so save the reasons for why we can't do it for another day.

How can we do this???
Click to expand...

Then just score it as shot and let the competitors compare their own scores. You're not making yourself clear at all because you really don't know what you want. You're trying to compare two different things by modifying one of them. Do what you want - add time, subtract time, whatever - or do nothing.
 
Well, I'm going to give it a shot (pun intended).
I will be experimenting with time modifiers at my next internal match. If I come up with anything reasonable, I'll share.

I will try comparing a centerfire semi to a 22LR semi, is there a functional/time distinction between:

  • Action/Time to load and make ready (while on the clock)
  • Action/Time to stance
  • Action/Time to draw
  • Action/Time to aim
  • Action/Time to fire
  • Action/Time to manage recoil
  • Action/Time to re-acquire
  • Action/Time to strip/discard an empty mag
  • Action/Time to acquire and reinsert a fresh mag
  • Action/Time to return to battery (rack)
  • Action/Time to manage a malfunction
My suspicion is that the actual time benefit is nearly negligible (less than 5% variance across all semis, slightly more with revolvers) so it's not apples to oranges, but more like Galas to Granny Smiths.
Just because something is difficult to do, doesn't mean we shouldn't try :)
 
Maetsack,

I also think you should look at overall accuracy compared to time. Recoil, caliber, gun weight and gun design would affect this.

If you could get a .22 conversion for a centerfire this would eliminate some of the differences in gun operations.

Very interested in your results!

DNH
 
DavesNotHere said:
Maetsack,

I also think you should look at overall accuracy compared to time. Recoil, caliber, gun weight and gun design would affect this.

If you could get a .22 conversion for a centerfire this would eliminate some of the differences in gun operations.

Very interested in your results!

DNH
Click to expand...

Excellent idea!
 
I was thinking along similar lines earlier today about introducing new shooters to a league night and how to do so safely when they have not had any formal training and trying to accommodate pistol shooters while avoiding having another club rule requiring a holstering course. (When a club has too many rules it becomes no fun for anyone.) I hadn't thought about .22LR, but I had though about the holstering and low ready. Problem is without holsters they will not be able to do any start that is not facing squarely down range and the equivalent of facing target hands at sides. The only way I could conceive a way around that is apply a procedural penalty. As for the .22, perhaps figure out what the Pf of a .22 LR would be and then divide minor by that and that is the number of shots required on target : (minor Pf/.22 LR Pf)x2= required hits per target eg. (125/(40x1200/1000))x2= 5.2 so instead or requiring 2 hits per target you would require 5. Better get good with mag changes. I'm thinking different division as well solves all the issues including COF restrictions.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom