Its funny, this thread had me thinking about those bullets. My .30-06 has been in the family since the early sixties and I don't know what ammunition my grandfather used but my father only bought Winchester 180's. Not sure what the Super X power points were called 30 years ago but he has a collection of nicely mushroomed 180 pp's that kept the freezer full every year. He now uses 175 pp's in his 7RM with similar performance save for a few pass through on closer shots on deer and slightly slower incapacitation on moose. Those cheap little rounds work.
Tell us about your bullet failures on game.
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A couple years ago I ran through a cutblock to cut off a big buck that was heading down a cutline. When I got to the far side he steeped out, I took an offhand shot at about 70 yards with Federal 180 grain 30-06 ammo. The buck ran off and I never found a drop of blood or a piece of hair. I stopped using the federal ammo and the 30-06 after that.
- Location
- Prince Albert, Sk
Hotwheels81
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- South of GP
Federal Fusion from a .270 last fall
2 does we're harvested and 1 buck using these, this is the most intact bullet that we recoverd and it's just the jacket...
The pieces were all contained in the chest cavity and shoulders, lots of blood shot meat and some tracking but the animal were recoverd.
To me it's not what I would call a true "failure"... But it is a disappointment to watch an animal go sprinting off full speed into the woods after a good solid hit in the vitals, no blood trail either so it put the tracking skills to the test... When I hit critters in the lungs with an interlock it looks like the forest floor is painted red and they don't travel very far
Personally I have a system, and it is not suggested as being perfect, it is just what I do. Anything that has a MV below 2600 fps, I do not worry about quality bullets, the rule is kind of fuzzy to about 2900 fps, and I use nothing but the ones that come by the 50 over that. At the 2400-2500 that I can get out of the heavy bullets in the 6.5x55 and the 7x57, my experience says they are just fine with unbonded cup and core bullets. 140 grain bullets in the 7x57 calls for good bullets, and I have some partitions. My theory is supported by all the stories of the wonderful killing power of a 215 grain bullet in a 303. I like to get cup and core bullets that were built to perform at magnum velocities, like speer mag tips, to use in the 7x57, as it is my opinion that most every bullet is less likely to come apart at 200-300 fps less. I have no ballistic requirements very far above 3000 feet per second, even though I have rifles that will do it easily with some bullet weights. I am perfectly happy to shoot 200 grain bullets in the 300 wm to keep the velocity down, and 175 in the 7 mm rem mag. True they are not as flat as the optimum, but it is the terminal ballistics I am interested in, and they are both pretty flat.
My only "issue" so far as been with the Sierra GameKing. I'll call it an "issue" and not a failure because the moose did die but I wasn't too pleased with the performance and it was partially my fault. I got my first moose draw when I was a teenager and was already a gun nut and a self-proclaimed ballistician at the time.
I went to the local gunsmith/gunshop to pick some ammo for my 7mm Rem Mag. I wanted some 175gr Remington Core Lokt. The owner looked in his big ballistic book and showed me that the Federal Premium 165gr GameKing produced more energy than any other factory loads and therefore would be better ammunition for moose. That didn't seem right but who was I to argue with a gunsmith/gunshop owner?!
The day came and my bull moose came out at 200 yds from my treestand. Fist shot behind the shoulder, the bull started running. Second shot a little further back and broke its back. The bull was dead by the time I walked to him. So far, so good.
When we gutted him I found out that the bullets had exploded after entry and not a piece of shrapnel had made to the far side ribs. In this case it worked out and the bullet disintegrating in the lungs was a quick death but this is not how I want a moose bullet to behave. I want a bullet to work when everything is wrong not only when everything is perfect.
I went to the local gunsmith/gunshop to pick some ammo for my 7mm Rem Mag. I wanted some 175gr Remington Core Lokt. The owner looked in his big ballistic book and showed me that the Federal Premium 165gr GameKing produced more energy than any other factory loads and therefore would be better ammunition for moose. That didn't seem right but who was I to argue with a gunsmith/gunshop owner?!
The day came and my bull moose came out at 200 yds from my treestand. Fist shot behind the shoulder, the bull started running. Second shot a little further back and broke its back. The bull was dead by the time I walked to him. So far, so good.
When we gutted him I found out that the bullets had exploded after entry and not a piece of shrapnel had made to the far side ribs. In this case it worked out and the bullet disintegrating in the lungs was a quick death but this is not how I want a moose bullet to behave. I want a bullet to work when everything is wrong not only when everything is perfect.
That's another of those quaint little sayings that has been repeated ad nauseum, usually by people who implying that more penetration is going to save their butt. In some situations it might, like having to shoot through something lengthwise because the first shot didn't go as planned.
Thing is, there's a lot of poor hits that more penetration won't help but vicious, violent expansion might salvage.
Here's a strange one.
A rifle malfunction the day before had me using a less-familiar back-up that had been sighted by the previous owner with 165gn CoreLokts. Fired on a huge white tail buck in full rut. 364yds. Slight qtr away. I SAW the round hut his side. He ran off and I spent 4hours tracking him. Until he finally expired while I went back to the truck for a rifle.
Round pencilled between two ribs and poked a hole in the on-side lung. Continued through where it hit a rib and exploded. Blew through the off side shoulder, blew out part of the brisket, and destroyed the off side lung. Took an awful long time in the dark to figure it out. I almost thought the deer was facing the other way if it hadn't been for the direction of the damage in the shoulder. No exit, no measurable fragments found. And I like to look. Most times, I get pass throughs. First time with a CoreLokt, probably the last.
A rifle malfunction the day before had me using a less-familiar back-up that had been sighted by the previous owner with 165gn CoreLokts. Fired on a huge white tail buck in full rut. 364yds. Slight qtr away. I SAW the round hut his side. He ran off and I spent 4hours tracking him. Until he finally expired while I went back to the truck for a rifle.
Round pencilled between two ribs and poked a hole in the on-side lung. Continued through where it hit a rib and exploded. Blew through the off side shoulder, blew out part of the brisket, and destroyed the off side lung. Took an awful long time in the dark to figure it out. I almost thought the deer was facing the other way if it hadn't been for the direction of the damage in the shoulder. No exit, no measurable fragments found. And I like to look. Most times, I get pass throughs. First time with a CoreLokt, probably the last.
Fair enough. I'm not one to take questionable shots but if the only shot I have is quartering shot (towards or away) or a shoulder shot, I don't want to have to pass it because I chose a cartridge or bullet that will only work on broadside heart/lung shot. Unfortunately with the distance I have to travel to hunt and work/life, I only get one kick at the can each year. I can't afford to say "oh well, maybe next week end I'll get a better shot".
Watching things work out gives you confidence. That is why I would just as soon have my 7x57 with 175 grain hornady round nose bullets as a 30/06 with 180 grain partitions. I know that in every way the '06 is more rifle, and the partitions are better bullets, it is just that I have watched lots of moose fall with one shot from the 7x57 , and I am confident in it. I have never been a stalking kind of hunter, and have always tried to make the most of the shot I have, rather than trying to get a better one, and it has worked for me. I hunt in the forest, and 200 yards is a very long shot. I am very interested in other peoples experience with cartridges and bullets. I know that not everyone springs for the expensive bullets, and I am glad to see that there a few guys who are confident in the more old fashioned bullets also. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and while some guys are inclined to follow the trends in bullets, I am happy to stay with the tried and true..
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I am happy with both old and new technology and have a pretty large selection of both in the reloading room. I pick and choose accordingly, depending on where I am and what I am doing with the rifle I am taking that day.
I find it educational to witness all sides of bullet technology, the best and the worst and try and make decisions based on those first hand experiences.
Lots of folks try testing bullets on water jugs, mud, ballistic gel etc. When I get a new rifle or want to try a new bullet, I choose one I think will work well from first hand experience and some research, then I go kill something. Bones, hide, organs and blood is how I do my testing to find what I like and what I don't. All legally of course in case the internet police want to jump in...
I have one way of judging a bullet. Consistent performance on a variety of game and on different presentations. [Recovery of the animal is not the defining factor for success/failure]
If a bullet fails to expand, disintegrates, or fails to penetrate through bone, that will be the last time I use that projectile on game.
Needless to say, over 50 years of hunting and a substantial number of dead animals, I have become somewhat opinionated.
There are quite a number of bullets available today that will meet the criteria that I, personally, require.
The extra cost of a premium bullet is a non-issue, IMHO, particularly when chamberings capable of high muzzle velocities are being used.
C&C bullets generally work fine at lower velocities, as already noted.
Regards, Dave.
If a bullet fails to expand, disintegrates, or fails to penetrate through bone, that will be the last time I use that projectile on game.
Needless to say, over 50 years of hunting and a substantial number of dead animals, I have become somewhat opinionated.
There are quite a number of bullets available today that will meet the criteria that I, personally, require.
The extra cost of a premium bullet is a non-issue, IMHO, particularly when chamberings capable of high muzzle velocities are being used.
C&C bullets generally work fine at lower velocities, as already noted.
Regards, Dave.
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Sierra game king 150 gr from a 308 winchester. Blew up inside the deer. It took a second shot to finish it off. Super accurate bullet but it came apart. The two deer shot before this failure, no issues. Same batch of bullets. Go figure.
I personally have had great luck with Hornady SP, SST, and Nosler Accubond. For factory loaded ammo Winchester Power Point for the 303 British is deadly. I wish Winchester would sell the PP as components.
I personally have had great luck with Hornady SP, SST, and Nosler Accubond. For factory loaded ammo Winchester Power Point for the 303 British is deadly. I wish Winchester would sell the PP as components.
I like your logic. I switched to "heavy for caliber' bullets for the same reason, and have found the cheap bullets work just fine if velocity is not too high. And much less meat loss.
I have some Barnes X bullets is several calibers. I fired a few into the swimming pool (that is how I test bullets) and the solid copper bullets expanded very well. How do they work on deer and moose?
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BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- New Scotland
Sometimes we misapply bullets, as I did with 140gr Ballistic Tips in the 7mm Weatherby. Those bullets, even at 200 yards, did a horrendous amount of damage. Sure they killed the deer, but they would be better reserved for shooting coyotes. I also misapplied some 286 Norma RNs out of my 9.3 when I rammed them, damn near full steam, into a 2000lb bison at 37 paces. Even at 2350 fps at the muzzle that was too much steam and too hard a target. They went deep enough and did kill the bison, but that was a pretty extreme test for a standard cup and core bullet.
So to say that the bullet failed is shifting blame, in my opinion. If you don't recover the bullet you have a hard time saying that it failed as you don't have any hard evidence. If you recover the bullet out of the animal you also have a hard time arguing that it failed because the animal is there dead. Some bullets don't live up to their hype, like Dogleg's DGX fiasco, but then with other people they do. I used a single 300gr DGX out of, and I hate to admit this, The New King, to cleanly kill a cape buffalo bull at just over 100 yards. Through the shoulder and into the heart. Stumble, fall, die. I should have made more of an effort to find that slug. Maybe DGX technology works better in the narrower bullets than the ones up closer to a half-inch.
There will always be aberrations. I'm sure if we look hard enough we will find someone that has had a failure with a Swift A Frame, which is probably the best hunting bullet ever to grace the face of the earth. Life happens, and Murphy is an anti.
So to say that the bullet failed is shifting blame, in my opinion. If you don't recover the bullet you have a hard time saying that it failed as you don't have any hard evidence. If you recover the bullet out of the animal you also have a hard time arguing that it failed because the animal is there dead. Some bullets don't live up to their hype, like Dogleg's DGX fiasco, but then with other people they do. I used a single 300gr DGX out of, and I hate to admit this, The New King, to cleanly kill a cape buffalo bull at just over 100 yards. Through the shoulder and into the heart. Stumble, fall, die. I should have made more of an effort to find that slug. Maybe DGX technology works better in the narrower bullets than the ones up closer to a half-inch.
There will always be aberrations. I'm sure if we look hard enough we will find someone that has had a failure with a Swift A Frame, which is probably the best hunting bullet ever to grace the face of the earth. Life happens, and Murphy is an anti.
270 Winchester with 130 grain GMX bullets (Hornady Superformance ammo). Hit both a deer and a coyote (separately!) at 350 yards. Both times, the bullet penciled through. They both died because shot placement was good, but I like carnage in the insides to keep them from getting too far. I've also had a 140 grain Accubond take a weird 90 degree turn when it hit the spine, but that was after doing a ton of damage already.
Haven't had any outright failures with SST's or BT's, but I don't push light bullets at high speed and I'm usually hitting game at 150 yards+. I mean, the other way to go is to use the new tech bullets, and go lighter, faster and flatter trajectory. I've got a buddy that pushes a 168 grain GS Custom Copper bullet through his 300WM fast and I'd be keen on trying that route if I could get any decent supply of them.
Haven't had any outright failures with SST's or BT's, but I don't push light bullets at high speed and I'm usually hitting game at 150 yards+. I mean, the other way to go is to use the new tech bullets, and go lighter, faster and flatter trajectory. I've got a buddy that pushes a 168 grain GS Custom Copper bullet through his 300WM fast and I'd be keen on trying that route if I could get any decent supply of them.
I used the same GMX in my .270 last year and took a mule deer at about 80 yards. I saw the bullet hit and the deer jump, saw a puff of dust on the hillside behind where the bullet impacted. Deer walked off calmly trailing blood and laid down and died about 100 yards away. The bullet passed between ribs on the way in and cut one rib cleanly in half on the way out. Not much for damage going through the lungs, looked similar to an arrow pass through to me! It did seem to expand but just didn't cause the wound channel I was expecting. Wouldn't say it was a failure but maybe not the best choice to use on a small doe!
This year I'm going to try either the SST or Partition as I have good loads for both worked up.
