Why did Norinco copy the M14?

I tried Taiwan many years ago to import T57 rifles, new or surplus. The long arm of the United States Government reached out and killed the dream after many months. I even offered to take the American M14!!
 
To confuse things further, there was a quite 'Well off' young fellow named Larry ( I think !) back in the '80's who lived in North Van., and made his money buying 'scrap' Russian and Chinese metal, up to and including submarines, and such. Yeah, it's the reverse of what you'd think, but he had 'Contacts' ! He took a Springfield Armoury M1A TO Norinco in China, and asked if they could "Copy it exactly like this one ?", a test run of 100 was ordered. A few months later, he received his box of rifles. Norinco , of course, wanted THEIR name on it, not Springfield's, but other than that, and 'workmanship/quality', they were "EXACTLY like this one.", right down to the same serial no. on all 100 guns. After a few minor changes, re-stamping serial no's. and such, they were sold at 1/3 the cost of an $800 Springfield Armouries. 'Larry' had A WINNER, AGAIN !
He ordered a thousand more, with the note for DIFFERENT serial no's., and the rest, as they say, is 'History'.
There WERE no 'Economy' M1A's previous to that (God KNOWS I LOOKED!) , 'Larry' wanted to borrow MY M1A to take to China (that's how you GET rich is by being 'frugal'), but I refused, so Rod Phillipsen loaned him one. I was there when he did, and I was also there when he brought in 5 from his initial shipment all with the same serial no., I remember we had quite a laugh about it !
At that time, U.S. 'surplus' M-14's hadn't been released yet, but FAL's HAD been and Lever was selling them in 'crates of 5' ( I still have his poster), or your other choice was the Armalite AR-10 that was extremely 'finicky'. I went with the Springfield Armoury's M1A, got lucky with an 'over run' NM barrel they slapped on it, and though I'm no rifleman (by FAR !) , at 100 yds., I could consistently cover 3 shot groups with a quarter, with iron sights. Regretfully, I had to sell that rifle for divorce lawyers fees, serial no. 011011 $775 N.I.B. .
MY question to 45ACPKING or any other experts, is where did 'Dr. M1A/M14/M305' go ? Anybody know how to contact him ? I can't find any of his postings !
 
I'm not much of a history buff but most of what I remember reading and researching on the history side has been from Different's ongoing "history and development of the m14"
I do know that one of the original armorer's tool sets specifically made for the M14 did in fact make it into the lowermainland, it was in the basement of the Hunters store (before international moved in) and was offered to me for 5000.00 back about a year before hunter's went under. no idea what's happened to that set of tools..... couple of pallets worth. if i remember right , there were only a handful of those sets made.
I remember someone telling me about a guy that had 100 receivers made , not sure if this is the guy mentioned above that was from Vancouver but the story sounds somewhat similar.... can't remember the name tho.......
there was a gunsmith that used to work for dlask around a decade ago that knew a tonne about the early days of the M14 and Chinese rifles/receivers in Canada as well.
 
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Drew-1664 said:
To confuse things further, there was a quite 'Well off' young fellow named Larry ( I think !) back in the '80's who lived in North Van., and made his money buying 'scrap' Russian and Chinese metal, up to and including submarines, and such. Yeah, it's the reverse of what you'd think, but he had 'Contacts' ! He took a Springfield Armoury M1A TO Norinco in China, and asked if they could "Copy it exactly like this one ?", a test run of 100 was ordered. A few months later, he received his box of rifles. Norinco , of course, wanted THEIR name on it, not Springfield's, but other than that, and 'workmanship/quality', they were "EXACTLY like this one.", right down to the same serial no. on all 100 guns. After a few minor changes, re-stamping serial no's. and such, they were sold at 1/3 the cost of an $800 Springfield Armouries. 'Larry' had A WINNER, AGAIN !
He ordered a thousand more, with the note for DIFFERENT serial no's., and the rest, as they say, is 'History'.
There WERE no 'Economy' M1A's previous to that (God KNOWS I LOOKED!) , 'Larry' wanted to borrow MY M1A to take to China (that's how you GET rich is by being 'frugal'), but I refused, so Rod Phillipsen loaned him one. I was there when he did, and I was also there when he brought in 5 from his initial shipment all with the same serial no., I remember we had quite a laugh about it !
At that time, U.S. 'surplus' M-14's hadn't been released yet, but FAL's HAD been and Lever was selling them in 'crates of 5' ( I still have his poster), or your other choice was the Armalite AR-10 that was extremely 'finicky'. I went with the Springfield Armoury's M1A, got lucky with an 'over run' NM barrel they slapped on it, and though I'm no rifleman (by FAR !) , at 100 yds., I could consistently cover 3 shot groups with a quarter, with iron sights. Regretfully, I had to sell that rifle for divorce lawyers fees, serial no. 011011 $775 N.I.B. .
MY question to 45ACPKING or any other experts, is where did 'Dr. M1A/M14/M305' go ? Anybody know how to contact him ? I can't find any of his postings !
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holy! gecko is that you? ive missed you buddy!
 
dand883 said:
I don't know why they kept making them, but they didn't "copy" the gun. When the US dropped the M14 for the M16, the chinese actually purchased the machinery from the US to make what we now have as the M305's.
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I think it was Taiwan that bought the machinery. A different "China".

It is my understanding that the Norinco ones are reverse engineered clones made to supply a civil war somewhere.
 
Taiwan got the US tooling Not China

China reverse engineered as far as history tells
I also have a vague recollection of the story about china making these rifles for a revolution in the phillipines I think, but the ship containing the arms was sunk before it was able to deliver said rifles.

Lee Emerson aka different on the foums is the guy to talk to for all these questions. He spend a lot of his life accumulating the knowledge he has passed on with his ongoing History and Development of the M14.
everyone who owns one of these rifles and loves it, should take the time to discover Lee Emerson's work on this subject.
 
45ACPKING said:
Taiwan got the US tooling Not China

China reverse engineered as far as history tells
I also have a vague recollection of the story about china making these rifles for a revolution in the phillipines I think, but the ship containing the arms was sunk before it was able to deliver said rifles.

Lee Emerson aka different on the foums is the guy to talk to for all these questions. He spend a lot of his life accumulating the knowledge he has passed on with his ongoing History and Development of the M14.
everyone who owns one of these rifles and loves it, should take the time to discover Lee Emerson's work on this subject.
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ditto
 
BeaverMeat said:
If I recall, Norinco was contracted to build forged receivers for Smith Enterprises. But then the Clinton administration was elected.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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Originally it was for Keng's Sporting Goods working with the Chinese, who was supplying some receivers to SEI for their early builds who re-manufactured them and marked them as SEI guns. SEI participated in refining the receivers to make them acceptable for the US market.

China made M14 receivers before all this, but they were full auto gap-rail guns reverse-engineered from, supposedly, a captured Winchester. If I remember right, they all had the same fake Winchester markings and had reliability issues because this pre-dated mass spectrometry and some of the Chinese guesses about metallurgy were wrong. None of those early guns are in Canada, though some of the earliest CAI-contracted guns (built around the same time as the Keng guns in the late 80's) were gap-rails, likely copied from their earlier Winchester-ish drawings.
 
Quoted from Emerson's book:

Keng’s Firearms
Keng’s Firearms (Stone Mountain, GA) imported Polytech Industries M14 type rifles. Keng’s Firearms was the only company that imported Chinese M14 type rifles (Polytech Industries M14/S models) into the United States before the March 14, 1989 ban on importing military-lookalike semi-automatic rifles. This event is commonly referred to as the “1989 import ban.” The Chinese M14 (Polytech Industries M14/S) rifles first appeared in the United States as part of the Keng’s Firearms exhibit at the January, 1988 SHOT Show.
Tim LaFrance noted that he had a concern with the Chinese bolts after examining the Polytech Industries rifles at the 1988 SHOT Show. He suggested to Keng’s Firearms that these rifles be evaluated because of his concern with the bolts. Consequently, Polytech Industries representatives from the People’s Republic of China contacted Smith Enterprise, Inc. shortly thereafter to discuss the manufacturing of M14 rifles. Representatives from Polytech Industries met for five days with Smith Enterprise personnel, with David Keng of Keng’s Firearms acting as translator. The Polytech Industries representatives were supplied with a set of USGI drawings for the M14.
After this first meeting, Polytech Industries sent raw forgings and assembled M14 rifles (Polytech serial numbers 00001 through 00005) to Smith Enterprise for evaluation and testing. Ron Smith personally test fired these first five Polytech Industries M14 type rifles. Smith Enterprise thoroughly examined and tested the Polytech Industries receivers and rifles. The receivers were found through spectrum analysis to be made of the Chinese equivalent of AISI 8620 alloy steel, the proper material for M14 receivers. The bolts, however, were not made of the correct steel alloy.
The testing included hardness testing of the Polytech Industries receiver core by cutting it apart. One Polytech Industries receiver was tested to destruction by loading ammunition to create excessively high chamber pressure. The reader MUST NOT exceed powder charges as listed in reputable reloading manuals if hand loaded ammunition is used. Personal injury or death may occur if done so. The very first Polytech Industries receivers were very hard, harder than a file, which left them without the toughness provided by the relatively soft core of receivers made according to USGI specifications. The Chinese quickly corrected this by strictly adhering to the receiver heat treatment procedure.
After Smith Enterprise completed the evaluation, a second meeting of the parties involved was held. Even after this second meeting, Polytech Industries did not correct all the concerns of Smith Enterprise and Keng’s Firearms had regarding the Chinese bolt. Specifically, 1) the bolt locking lugs were too narrow 2) the carburizing and hardness remained unsatisfactory because State Arsenal 356 did not change the material to equivalent AISI 8620 steel but continued to use steel equivalent to AISI 4135. This was in spite of the fact that Keng’s Firearms offered to supply USGI M14 bolts until Polytech Industries could manufacture its own bolts according to USGI specifications. Polytech Industries refused this offer from Keng’s Firearms. The Chinese never changed the bolt material for M14 type rifles exported to the United States.
Century Arms International
Century Arms International (St. Albans, VT) imported both completed Polytech Industries rifles and Norinco M14 type rifles and receivers. Norinco rifles imported by Century Arms International had the least aesthetic appeal of all the Chinese M14 type rifles imported into the United States. Typically, the chu wood stocks are serviceable but not pleasing to the eye. The flash suppressors were cut just forward of the front sight to comply with the March 14, 1989 ban. The Polytech Industries rifles had better looking chu wood stocks and finish. Some, if not all, Polytech Industries M14S and Norinco M14 Sporter rifles imported by Century Arms International have serial numbers with a letter C followed by a hyphen and four digits, e.g., C-0640. Some of the Chinese receivers sold by Century Arms International were stamped at State Arsenal 356 in Yunnan Province and the rest were stamped by Century Arms International. Century Arms International imported the Chinese rifles some time after 1990.
CJA
The third importer, CJA (Southfield, MI) imported Chinese rifles for a short time just prior to September 13, 1994. The stamping CJA SLFD MICH appears on some Norinco rifles and the marking IDE USA SLFD MICH appears on some Polytech Industries receivers. CJA imported the best looking Chinese M14 rifles into the United States. Representatives from CJA traveled to State Arsenal 356 in China to discuss the assembly process of the M14 type rifles it wished to import. These rifles were assembled with walnut stocks and new production parts with a very good finish.
Chinese M14 Type Rifle Export to Canada
Marstar (Vankleek Hill, Ontario) at present imports Norinco M305 rifles into Canada. The Norinco M305 rifles imported by Marstar have the slotted flash suppressor and scope mount recoil lug. The fit and finish of Norinco M305 rifles entering Canada today are judged to be better than that found on the 1980s and 1990s rifles exported to the United States. Reportedly, USGI bolts fit properly in these post-’00 production Norinco M305 rifles. The bolt hardness is also higher than bolts exported to the United States before 1994.
Chinese Receivers
There is no substantial difference between Norinco and Polytech Industries receivers although Smith Enterprise found the surface hardness to vary from 41 to 60 HRC without regard to marking. Smith Enterprise, Inc. has done extensive inspection, and non-destructive testing, and destructive examination of Chinese receivers. These inspections and tests have verified that Chinese M14 receivers are made of AISI 8620 equivalent alloy steel. Chinese receivers are drop forged into forms of larger bulk and less definition than the USGI receivers were. Then, like the American manufacturers, machine tools cut away at the metal from the raw forging to create the final desired shape before carburizing and heat treatment.
Chinese receivers are not made of high carbon alloy steel such as AISI 52100 or other such high chromium alloy steel. Equivalent AISI 5100 series steel is high carbon (1.0 to 1.1 %) alloy steel that is much too hard for a rifle receiver. Because it is a high carbon steel that is thorough hardened it lacks toughness and ductility needed for the M14 type rifle. AISI 52100 alloy steel is the most commonly used steel for bearings. The machinability rating is 40 % when in the spheroidized annealed and cold drawn condition as compared to 100 % for AISI 1112 steel. It is difficult to machine and must be quenched below room temperature to form martensite. Smith Enterprise did some surface hardness testing of Chinese receivers in 1999. The results varied from 41 to 60 HRC. Soft receivers can be brought up to USGI specification by nitrocarburizing treatment.
Chinese receivers have a threaded hole for a setscrew in the barrel ring. The Chinese rifles are built with a setscrew threaded far enough through the barrel ring to contact the barrel. The barrel setscrew is unnecessary for securing the barrel in the receiver. However, the Chinese manufactured their receivers this way because it is their psychological mindset.
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