- Location
- Halifax - NS
A good theory; but it doesn't work out in practice - there is never anyone shooting minor in Standard that has hopes of being competitive. Production would be the same.
buyer beware - used production pistols
- Thread starter ipsc1
- Start date
Cost of the gun, used at 2000.00 is nothing compared to cost of ammo, match fees, and travel costs.
Well maybe you should put you money where your mouth is and try and beat one of those old blind guys.
I'll loan you a open gun for a match and we will see how you do???
You are a great shooter. Last few of your posts on CGN make it obvious that you know it and want others to know it too. Not the coolest character trait of a "real shooter".
CZ USA doesn't even list the SP-01 Shadow in their catalog and while CZ Custom has it on their website, they indicate non in stock and no expected delivery date.
It would seem there is more than just rules involved. USPSA approves the CZ Custom guns...USPSA is "the" version if IPSC in the US despite some IPSC being played in the US so CZ goes with the flow. CZ USA is wholly owned by CZ UB and CZUB has a financial interest in CZ Custom - What Angus told me on the phone. Either that or you have to believe CZ sell all it's Shadows to Canada and hasn't got enough production to meet CZ USA orders.
Take Care
Bob
I shoot Open guns mostly because I like shooting them. To me they feel like driving a 911 turbo vs a Toyota Corrolla. I am now admittedly also old and blind, but wasn't always. I also have a Shadow and love shooting it. It's a great gun, but the Production Division rules are indeed nonsensical. It has really become the defacto Shadow/Tanfoglio Division. With Tanfo now building what is essentially a purpose-built, divisional racing gun, real Production guns can't compete. Maybe we should just call it Shad-Foglio Division and be done with it.
For those who will say it's the indian not the arrow; sure, all things being equal that's true. If you have two guys of identical skill shooting the same stages/matches with the same equipment, they are going to be generally close enough to be swapping places in tiny increments from match to match. Give one of them a much better gun however, and the spread gets much wider.
Scenario: You get into IPSC and on the advice of all the experienced shooters you decide to buy a CZ Shadow and start competing. Over time you get better, maybe even really good, but now you find you are getting your ass handed to you every time you come up against the guy with the heavier gun, the longer sight radius the nice, crisp yet soft out of the box factory custom trigger. So now if you want to go up that next wrung you look at your choices: 1. Clip a couple of coils off a two $2.00 spring and get someone to "polish" the innards or 2. Spend 2 grand on the Tanfo. Pretty easy to guess what most are going to do?
For those who will say it's the indian not the arrow; sure, all things being equal that's true. If you have two guys of identical skill shooting the same stages/matches with the same equipment, they are going to be generally close enough to be swapping places in tiny increments from match to match. Give one of them a much better gun however, and the spread gets much wider.
Scenario: You get into IPSC and on the advice of all the experienced shooters you decide to buy a CZ Shadow and start competing. Over time you get better, maybe even really good, but now you find you are getting your ass handed to you every time you come up against the guy with the heavier gun, the longer sight radius the nice, crisp yet soft out of the box factory custom trigger. So now if you want to go up that next wrung you look at your choices: 1. Clip a couple of coils off a two $2.00 spring and get someone to "polish" the innards or 2. Spend 2 grand on the Tanfo. Pretty easy to guess what most are going to do?
Then Bob Vogrl shows up with a $600 Glock with competition sights and wins the Worlds.
It is hardly the manufacturers fault shooters think they can buy talent with an expensive gun. Buy the next "have to" gun if you want but do it for a lot of reasons other than you expect to become a winner with it. What was it P T Barnum said
Take Care
Bob
Somehow in a 4 years of shooting the same CZ guns, I didn't feel any need to cut springs, let alone buying any new gun every half a year. Somehow trigger pull was crisp for me out of the box. But a year or so of rock climbing made a much more noticeable difference for me.
Replace CZ main spring to a factory 13lb and recoil to 11lb and you are good to go... Everything else you better spend on the ammo and gas to drive to the range.
Replace CZ main spring to a factory 13lb and recoil to 11lb and you are good to go... Everything else you better spend on the ammo and gas to drive to the range.
A used $2000 Open gun has seen better days. An SP01 is about $1000, and a Stock II is $1800 A good Limited gun is $2500-$3000. Open guns start at $3600 before all the work required to make them reliable.
As for the 'old blind guy comment' I guess the little guy laughing on the floor didn't come through on your computer.
You don't need to loan me a gun. I've seen you shoot & have RO'd you many times. It's a game - you're very good at it, I'm not, but I have fun...without cheating.
CZ USA lists the SP01 Shadow Target and the Accu-Shadow. The SP01 Shadow Target is the SP01 Shadow Custom 2014 (from CZ Custom) with adjustable rear sight. Apparently CZUB only manufactures so many SP01 Shadows at a time, certain times per year. Angus doesn't always know when or how many he's getting. Lately they've been telling people 6-8 weeks delivery time.
You guys all seem to miss the point, there are just too many shooters in production, many under the misguided belief that it is less expensive, or easier to get the equipment to compete in. Once you have the gear which is about the same in cost ( plus an extra 1000 for an open gun)the real cost is ammo , match fees, travel and practice ammo. I am just trying to convince people to try open and see how much better it will make you at every division.
Oh, I forgot this item,... practice is also a good way to do better, there seems to be a lot of shooters who shoot matches but never practice and never seem to improve.
Sorry to hijack the thread but from where I see it production is the hot bed, with a few exceptions, of extra rounds to hit anything. We need more young shooters willing to try open for the sport to grow.
Mike
Oh, I forgot this item,... practice is also a good way to do better, there seems to be a lot of shooters who shoot matches but never practice and never seem to improve.
Sorry to hijack the thread but from where I see it production is the hot bed, with a few exceptions, of extra rounds to hit anything. We need more young shooters willing to try open for the sport to grow.
Mike
I don't think anyone is missing the point. As much of an arms race as it has become, Production is still the cheapest way to get into the game. There are probably only a dozen or so IPSC shooters in Ontario that compete at your level (out of 1000?). The rest use Tuesday nights at Burlington, or their local range as practice sessions. A lot of guys are shooting Glocks/M&P/Sigs/etc because that's what they own. Others have upgraded to CZ's or Stock II's. I shot a H&K USP (with a real sweet 12lb DA trigger) for 10yrs before I bought a CZ. I don't travel across the country or around the world for big matches. If there's a Level2 or Level3 nearby I'll enter. I'm a cheap bastard that reloads 9mm with range brass and Frontier plated bullets. My practice sessions are Tuesday nights at the local match and practice ammo is my match ammo. I also have other hobbie$.
You're right, practice is a great way to do better. I'm not convinced that putting out big $$$ for an Open gun will make everyone better in every division. For young shoots (I'm assuming you mean juniors?) to try Open, it's a big cash outlay for them (Dad). How do you define growth in the sport? The BB courses are full every year with new shooters but the numbers don't grow much. The problem seems to be keeping competitors in the sport. Canadian politics and IPSC politics are as much to blame as anything else.
Good luck in Florida.
Mike, they usually feel much worse when someone with Production gun beats them every time and they had to spend $1k more on the gun...
