buyer beware - used production pistols

skip1600 said:
This is why I don't shoot production anymore .. The idea of a production gun has been lost along the way somewhere, between guys modding thier guns guts to so called "production" guns with heavy bull barrels it's just easier to shoot a division where everything is out in the open .. No ones being sneaky
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Not to be a prick but that's an excuse. I have a stock 2 with bull barrel and a Shadow. Zero noticeable difference in performance. Just difference in quality and beauty.

In fact the top production guy in Canada shoots a Shadow as do the majority of production shooters. The guys who do all the illegal stuff gain very , very little but the guys who don't practice enough love using it as an excuse for being beat.

If you aren't like that I apologize but there are so many that love that EXCUSE for not practicing.
 
On cheating here is a story for those of you who shoot IPSC and USPSA on the West Coast. There was a well known shooter USPSA/IDPA who was unaffectionately known as Minor (Insert last name) by all who knew him. For the past 25 years this guy has avoided getting caught at the Chrono for cheating. His CDP gun in IDPA (1911 45acp 165min PF) hardly rose in recoil but for reasons only gun god knows he managed to get through chrono and manged to avoid several attempts to catch him.

Well this year he finally got caught at the WA State IDPA match. While not involved directly as a CSO I was instructed on day 2 to choose a shooter out of any squad that showed up on my stage and after doing the LMR stop and ask for seven rounds out of the guys gun and out of his first mag. So after a couple of squads had gone through I did as instructed. Young lad came to the line. After loading him I proceeded to explain this was a random chrono check and required the rounds as above. He cheerfully complied and I sent the rounds off to chrono which of course the young man passed. Our friend Minor (Insert last name) finally after 25 years got caught. He reluctantly complied, I am told, with the CSO's request, shot that stage and left the range after the next stage and did not go to the chrono. The MD chronoed three of his loads ...the highest hit 139. Because he did not appear at the Chrono he was scored as a DNF. It took 25 years to catch a cheater. A guy who likely will not now appear at any IDPA matches again and certainly not at the WA State match. The story of his antics most certainly spread to the regions USPSA match officials and I would be surprised if he appears at their matches either.

The issue is the guy had some talent and likely would have won some of the matches over the years without cheating. The other side of the coin was he took prizes and trophies away from guys who finished second to him without cheating. Was it worth it? Maybe though I suspect not. He went from being known as Minor (Insert Last Name) to Cheater (Insert Last Name). Seem to me it is just better to follow the rules, the few wins you get will mean more to you than be known as Cheater (Insert Last Name) if not by your friends by yourself.

I should add we don't play for anything of monetary or social value in IPSC or IDPA so why cheat? Enjoy the sports for what they are and the friends you meet along the way. It is the archer not the arrow folks and bending the arrow doesn't make a winner...... only a real loser.

Take care

Bob
 
cbabes said:
Not to be a prick but that's an excuse. I have a stock 2 with bull barrel and a Shadow. Zero noticeable difference in performance. Just difference in quality and beauty.

In fact the top production guy in Canada shoots a Shadow as do the majority of production shooters. The guys who do all the illegal stuff gain very , very little but the guys who don't practice enough love using it as an excuse for being beat.

If you aren't like that I apologize but there are so many that love that EXCUSE for not practicing.
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Price of trees is going up for you babes..

I lose because I shoot outside of my limits under the timer .. At practices I shoot all As I swear.

I'm not trying to say that someone's doing something unfair by shooting a stock 2 , though I have shot one or two and do feel a pretty definitive difference in shooting them vs my shadows. My issue is with the rules and what's allowed vs not is confusing and illogical at times. I prefer the do what ever you want divisions as if I want to put grip tape somewhere I'm not going to get in trouble for it. I don't think anyone can really argue that what most production guns are, are far more custom and performance built vs the idea behind the division
 
skip1600 said:
Price of trees is going up for you babes..

I lose because I shoot outside of my limits under the timer .. At practices I shoot all As I swear.

I'm not trying to say that someone's doing something unfair by shooting a stock 2 , though I have shot one or two and do feel a pretty definitive difference in shooting them vs my shadows. My issue is with the rules and what's allowed vs not is confusing and illogical at times. I prefer the do what ever you want divisions as if I want to put grip tape somewhere I'm not going to get in trouble for it. I don't think anyone can really argue that what most production guns are, are far more custom and performance built vs the idea behind the division
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Oops I know you don't I? LOL.

Some good points there for sure. :cheers:
 
The production rules actually don't make a lot of sense to me....

-A FP block can be removed on a CZ, but not on a tanfoglio.
-No aftermarket trigger components allowed, but a race race pistol produced by an OFM is (who knows how much an OFM pays to get a gun on the production list)
-No aftermarket springs allowed, even though some (most?) OFM do not make their own springs.
-The minimum trigger pull weight marginalizes most striker fired pistols.
-Polishing is not permitted except its impossible to tell the difference between that and normal wear.
-You can't alter the slide to fit sights (seriously, what the hell is the point of this one)
-There is nothing 'production' about a race holster.
-Cosmetic finishing on the gun is not permitted (even though many would love to have their production guns chromed).

I really think USPSA is far ahead of IPSC when it comes to production division.
 
Onagoth said:
The production rules actually don't make a lot of sense to me....

-A FP block can be removed on a CZ, but not on a tanfoglio.
-No aftermarket trigger components allowed, but a race race pistol produced by an OFM is (who knows how much an OFM pays to get a gun on the production list)
-No aftermarket springs allowed, even though some (most?) OFM do not make their own springs.
-The minimum trigger pull weight marginalizes most striker fired pistols.
-Polishing is not permitted except its impossible to tell the difference between that and normal wear.
-You can't alter the slide to fit sights (seriously, what the hell is the point of this one)
-There is nothing 'production' about a race holster.
-Cosmetic finishing on the gun is not permitted (even though many would love to have their production guns chromed).

I really think USPSA is far ahead of IPSC when it comes to production division.
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No major is pretty baffling too
 
Onagoth said:
The production rules actually don't make a lot of sense to me....


-No aftermarket trigger components allowed, but a race race pistol produced by an OFM is (who knows how much an OFM pays to get a gun on the production list)



I really think USPSA is far ahead of IPSC when it comes to production division.
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It costs noting but electrons and brain cells to get a gun approved.

You just have to communicate with IPSC, get someone from the rules committee to handle and inspect the gun, and make damn sure it actually complies with the rules.
 
Production division is the hotbed of cheating, and worse yet having to get a new model every few months to stay competitive....why not go 9mm Major open...if you load then ammo costs the same but you need less as you can hit everything with 1 shot......there is No cheating ( except calling for imaginary doubles) as everything up to a 170mm mag is legal!, want an 8 Oz trigger go for it. any weight, scope, cartridge 9mm or over, shy's the limit.

The only problem with Open is how fast you have to go and there are no excuses except for your own skill or lack of.

Come to the dark side...............Mike
 
Why the hell would you want to cheat anyway. Name of the game has always been competing against oneself and having fun. I got no time for cheaters and they should be banned from the sport.
 
Canuck223 said:
It costs noting but electrons and brain cells to get a gun approved.

You just have to communicate with IPSC, get someone from the rules committee to handle and inspect the gun, and make damn sure it actually complies with the rules.
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Then tell my why the stock 2 xtreme is production approved but the accu-shadow is not?
 
Onagoth said:
Then tell my why the stock 2 xtreme is production approved but the accu-shadow is not?
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Who makes the Stock II Extreme? Angus makes the Accu's not CZ. Anything modified by CZ Custom is not approved. But you're right...USPSA Prod rules make way more sense.
 
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Ipsik said:
Production division is the hotbed of cheating, and worse yet having to get a new model every few months to stay competitive....why not go 9mm Major open...if you load then ammo costs the same but you need less as you can hit everything with 1 shot......there is No cheating ( except calling for imaginary doubles) as everything up to a 170mm mag is legal!, want an 8 Oz trigger go for it. any weight, scope, cartridge 9mm or over, shy's the limit.

The only problem with Open is how fast you have to go and there are no excuses except for your own skill or lack of.

Come to the dark side...............Mike
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I think your first comment is a little extreme. As to why not go 9mm Major Open - cost of the gun.

Besides...isn't Open for old blind guys that can't handle the recoil of a regular 9mm? Laugh2
 
pmt said:
Who makes the Stock II Extreme? Angus makes the Accu's not CZ. Anything modified by CZ Custom is not approved.
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Unless im mistaken, angus doesnt make the accu shadow, he customizes a cz shadow....just like eric grauffel customized the stock 2.

Why should it matter that eric did this in the tanfolgio factory whereas angus does it in his own shop?
 
Onagoth said:
Then tell my why the stock 2 xtreme is production approved but the accu-shadow is not?
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pmt said:
Who makes the Stock II Extreme? Angus makes the Accu's not CZ. Anything modified by CZ Custom is not approved. But you're right...USPSA Prod rules make way more sense.
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Bingo.

If CZ Custom was in house, the Accu-Shadow could be approved as a variant.
Since it's done by an at arms length operation, no go.

The Tanfoglio Extreme guns are prepped in house, so no problem.
 
Onagoth said:
Thats a distinction without a difference IMO
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I hear you. Trust me. I hear you.

Sports shooters want no compromise performance.
Manufacturers hit the wall when the lawyers and customer service departments can't cope with the risk or needs of the end users.

Sometimes, it's just wiser to work with a performance shop to look after those customers.

One story that night highlight the point.

If you've seen the Grand Power X-Calibur, the fluted barrel stands out.

In a production meeting, the idea of going with the heavy barrel as standard was floated.
Greater mass might appeal to the Production shooters, and dropping the fluting would save machine time and cost.

The problem was from testing we knew that the heavy barrel could be a problem for some users.
The added mass soaks up recoil, but also is slower to start turning.
For the average guy shooting 132PF 125gr ammo, no problem.
For guys shooting 132 PF 147gr ammo, still likely no problem.

However, we all know that guy who has to run right at the edge.
The heavy barrel with 147gr ammo with a lighter charge or weak wrists could result in feeding problems.

We could deal with 5-10 percent of the buyers having to fuss with the gun to get it to run, or limit the heavy barrel to an available accessory.
 
Onagoth said:
the only problem with that is if major was recognized, practically nobody would should minor.....unless they did something with the mag capacities like in classic.
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Thinner grip profile (9mm) less recoil (40 minor) like being a #### with cast bullets (45acp minor). .. The last one is a joke....I don't think you'd see that much variance in shooters as major packs more punch than a lot of shooters want to deal with
 
Umm really? The Shadow has been the top dog in PD for what 10 years? Sure there is a good chance Eric will take it this year, or Ben, with a Tanfo, but world wide the Shadow is still the top choice.

Ipsik said:
Production division is the hotbed of cheating, and worse yet having to get a new model every few months to stay competitive....why not go 9mm Major open...if you load then ammo costs the same but you need less as you can hit everything with 1 shot......there is No cheating ( except calling for imaginary doubles) as everything up to a 170mm mag is legal!, want an 8 Oz trigger go for it. any weight, scope, cartridge 9mm or over, shy's the limit.

The only problem with Open is how fast you have to go and there are no excuses except for your own skill or lack of.

Come to the dark side...............Mike
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