Frustrated and Need help, inconsistent groups

curseyou said:
Forgive me for questioning you ... but...

Neck turn every firing? Is there anything to shave off the neck after a firing? I can see neck trimming for length, but i havent found any inconsistency in neck thickness after outside turning once that would ever justify re-turning.

Are you on drugs or am I?
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Try it.. May be surprised at the results. I sure was.

Brass flows. How much does it take to make your sizing inconsistent?

I am looking for all the accuracy and consistency I can extract from my ammo. It helps me...

YMMV

Jerry
 
krprice84 said:
Biged, while you are absolutely right, I can't see the neck sizing being the problem. It would mean that the first five shot group should be bad too.

I wonder if the barrel has developed a problem with fouling, and as such fouls up quickly? Also wonder if it is being cooled down enough, though I would think this wouldn't crop up suddenly like this?

I'll leave this to more experienced shooters, but to me, it sounds like, while the ammo isn't being worked in the best fashion (no body/full length sizing being done), this should show up, if it was causing a problem, with all the loads not just the second set of five, no?
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From reading the OP post I'm not sure if he means after he reloads the groups increase in size or his second group following the first opens up a few minutes later. My first answer was if it was a reloading issue, my second guess now is the OP is drinking coffee and looking at the Playboy centerfold while waiting for the barrel to cool and is totally loosing his concentration. :rolleyes:
 
Thanks everyone for your thought and suggestions, I am going to try annealing the necks and see what this does for me, also going to try and up the powder to see what happens to my groups, then I will try neck tuning. I will have to look into this because I have never done neck tuning before.
Just clear up some questions, its a Kreiger barrel on a Barnard action and 07 chassis that doesn't need to be bedded, this issue just started with some ammo I loaded last year, I have checked for throat erosion and it hasn't happened yet, I had the barrel scoped and there is no deposits we could find. This happens very inconsistently which is why its so confusing. No I don't drink coffee at the range and let the barrel cool down about 20 min between strings (while I use another rifle) no playboy mags at the range (sometimes the real thing though but I don't shoot rifle on those days LOL ). I have checked all the screws and mounts and everything is tight, like I said I get a real tight group then it opens right up.
 
Ah hah! Ammo loaded last year? Could very well be that your neck tension has increased in a very inconsistent way. Many guys have found that their hand loads from a while ago can have somewhat inconsistent neck tension due to an almost "cold welding" effect. I don't like that term as they aren't being welded, but I think the real idea is simply that the neck and bullet kind of set into one another maybe?

Either way, I'd suggest either the k&m neck turner or,, if you don't mind waiting, the 21st century shooting turner. You also need to get the expander so the necks are sized right for a glove like fit on the turning pilot. Spring for the carbide cutter and pilot too.... less friction and less chance of galling the necks.

Good luck!

Oh and if you decide that this simply is too much hassle, PM me and I can take that "awful" gun off your hands, free of charge! :D
 
Krprice84 is right, I get inconsistent results from ammo loaded for more then a week. Now if I'm shooting ammo in next couple days, I usually load them few thou (.020") longer and night before I adjust my dies to normal setting and run them through seating die again, that way it breaks any cold weld seal. I use micrometer dies and they help in this process coz I don't have to take out measuring tools.
 
Damn.....that's a brilliant idea! I generally try to just make time to load the night before, and i prep brass so all I need is powder and bullet. Concern I have here is that it has been shown that tension can vary ever so slightly on brass that has been prepped to long ago. I like your idea. Leave em a but long and finish the night before. Awesome!
 
calgarycanada said:
Krprice84 is right, I get inconsistent results from ammo loaded for more then a week. Now if I'm shooting ammo in next couple days, I usually load them few thou (.020") longer and night before I adjust my dies to normal setting and run them through seating die again, that way it breaks any cold weld seal. I use micrometer dies and they help in this process coz I don't have to take out measuring tools.
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That is exactly what I do.....
 
Mystic Precision said:
So how does factory match ammo exist?

And what happends when you go to another country and have to ship your ammo months ahead?

Jerry
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Interesting point, maybe is not as valid as I've been led to believe.

Maybe it was more in reference to benchrest shooting, where an extra quarter inch kills the day? I know I've read that there were tests done on this.... but can't recall the exact details. But that's a very valid point...
 
I find ammo will still group what many would consider "good" by loading ahead or even shooting factory match ammo BUT when I am trying to wring every last ounce out of a rig I load just prior or leave the bullets out 20 thou and reseat just before shooting.
This type of technique would not explain the OPs results imo.
 
I don't know Jerry. You are the expert and I'm not, honestly I trust you more then myself but I have tried reseating bullets and I can definitely feel a seal break when seated further. It could be just placebo effect but I got better results when I compared. I'm not a good enough shooter to shoot in local matches let alone international, but I suppose you can bring your seating die and portable press with you, that may also(maybe) reduce any runout developed during transportation ???

Mystic Precision said:
So how does factory match ammo exist?

And what happends when you go to another country and have to ship your ammo months ahead?

Jerry
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Thank you all for your input and suggestions, just wanted to update and let you know I have re-acquired some decent groups last night at the range by trying some of this advice.
I have taken all your guys info and I am going back to load development to get my speeds up to where they should be (more trigger time yeah). I will be changing one thing at a time so I know what actually works for my rifle. Thanks again CGN, your always a big help.
 
Now that I have my 308 competition loads sorted out. I will begin Long Term storage tests with left overs from the US nationals this month.

Easy enough to compare them next spring vs newly loaded ammo. All components consistent

Stay tuned.

Jerry
 
A big problem is the condition of the neck surface when the bullets were loaded. I do not wet tumble/ultrasonic clean because I feel the brass is too clean. In this situation, you have have seating issues right away. Now you have to lube. How does that lube work over time? And on and on.

I use the traditional walnut shells so there is a film of fouling in the necks. Seating pressure is even and consistent. Never seen an issue but will give it a test just for info.

Unless the necks get wet, not sure how that fouling would bind to the bullet.... but see the follow up next spring.

Jerry
 
I ultrasonic and tumble my brass. Goes in the water after depriming and once I've finished neck turning, soon to be annealing, sizing, trimming, then it gets a quick tumble to clean off the water spots, figure prints etc. Never had seating issues yet.
 
Well Barnard, you have one big problem easy to solve.....clean your barrel.
Tumblers are useless and you can read Lee about this. You will save time. I have never cleaned the Inside of the brass.

I have much more accurate rifles than your 308, swedish mausers. I clean the barrels after 15 , max 20 rounds.
Get a Lyman book and read the article about cleaning by Butch Fisher page 88.

Never in my life I would shoot 100 rounds without cleaning.

Go and read Butch, this will change your life.
 
krprice84 said:
Is it likely to give good groups for the first five shots then get worse after that though, if the scope was the problem
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Not necessarily, but... scopes with something loose or sticky inside can be *utterly* perverse, and absolutely can do something like this, as they drive you around in circles and waste weeks or even months of your time.

Barnard308, you have a first-rate target rifle (Barnard action, Krieger barrel, good stock). Your problem is that suddenly you are getting 1.5 or 2.0 MOA groups at 200 yards. Your rifle shoot shot 1/2-MOA groups with any match bullets randomly-thrown together to form some sort of ammo. There is no way that small and subtle factors like neck tension or thickness variations are at work here. If you were chasing after a tenth-of-a-MOA error trying to get from 0.5 MOA to 0.4MOA, yes that's the sort of final thing to iron out. But you have something BIG wrong here. Something somewhere is loose, sticking, not fitting, or missing. Some big and obvious error, that will be completely clear to you when you find it. Don't chase after small stuff, you don't have a small problem. Look for big and obvious: loose barrel; loose bedding screws; loose scope mounts; malfunctioning scope.
 
Sw. Mauserman said:
Well Barnard, you have one big problem easy to solve.....clean your barrel.
Tumblers are useless and you can read Lee about this. You will save time. I have never cleaned the Inside of the brass.

I have much more accurate rifles than your 308, swedish mausers. I clean the barrels after 15 , max 20 rounds.
Get a Lyman book and read the article about cleaning by Butch Fisher page 88.

Never in my life I would shoot 100 rounds without cleaning.

Go and read Butch, this will change your life.
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Are you sure? I have a Kreiger .3075" groove barrel, use Lapua Palma brass, launching a 155 gr at 3075 fps. Cleaned it before shooting, cleaned it again at 50 rnds and 100 rnds. Then it was cleaned after a couple of shoots at 400 rnds. Have close to 600 rnds down the tube and it shoots fine. I've already saved 27 unnecessary cleanings. Cleaning fetish?
 
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