FBI is switching back to 9mm handguns.

[mrgoat]

The circle of life:

Step One - reduce cost, increase department scores during test shoots, make operators happy with low recoil, lead a re-arming program accruing new contracts, write up a white paper about good progress archived.

Step Two - get yourself in a fight 8 on 2 and get decimated.

Step Three - create a commission, write up an alarming report on how ineffective sidearms are, lead a re-arming program accruing new contracts

Unfortunately in this day and age there is a tremendous amount of truth to the above statements. Having spent 28yrs in the government service, logic and common sense has nothing to do with decision making. It is the justification of ones existence that takes priority. If a government decision makes perfect sense and it is wise one it was only by pure accident. After this plan is implemented a number of years will go by a new bureaucrat will come along and decide to reinvent the wheel again and the whole process will repeat.
So Slavex and TDC can be 100% correct in there thought process on what is best for law enforcement. But there reasoning had nothing to do with the decision arrived at.

 

[Canuck44]

Funny how everyone TDC said, and has been saying (along with a bunch of us) for years, is exactly what the FBI is saying too, and has been saying for a long time too.

Was this sentence supposed to mean something Rob or did you just have a sudden urge to wrote down a bunch of words? Late night or a long shift?

Take Care

Bob

 

[curseyou]

The military inustrial complexe must be fed a constand diet of cash and bull####. The monstrosity will then digest the cash and bull#### and convert it into 20% cash for a few key people and 800% more bull#### for everyone else.

As for the actual calibre decisions a diameter of .355-.357 is adequate. Proof is the .357 magnum. What they really need is a pistol that can do what a revolver does. Offer the flex of light .38 special and the power of .357 mag and just replicate it in a new rimless cartridge. They can call it the .356 Bull#### to eliminate confusion around similar rounds and to honour the history of ots development.

 

[r34skyline]

Was this sentence supposed to mean something Rob or did you just have a sudden urge to wrote down a bunch of words? Late night or a long shift?

Take Care

Bob

I was gonna ask that about some of your posts Bob

Oh and ps write*

 

[Slavex]

small typo, was supposed to read "everything" not "everyone"

I was addressing comments that TDC didn't know what he was talking about in regards to the reasons they were switching. This has been talked about for months now on many US forums, where people in the know were relating why the switch was coming, and yeah, it's for the reasons a bunch of us, TDC included, have been saying for years, 9mm is simply the best choice, cost, ease of shooting it, capacity, ammo performance and so on. That doesn't mean the FBI looked at our comments in the past and went "hmm a bunch of Canadians think we should change" it just means that what we've been saying is right.
While there is a certain amount of truth to the post above detailing the typical arming and re-arming process that large agencies go through, you might notice that the FBI hasn't really followed that method, they did the initial change to 10mm, quickly figured out that was dumb, did the 40 and then sat there for a long long time before making this decision. This was not something undertaken by one or two people either, this was a massive process with a lot of departments being involved.

 

[dan belisle]

Controlled expansion, lookup Speer Golddot hallow point one of the more popular duty rounds used by many police forces (including Canadian ones)

The use of force is only one area of the job. for a basic regular constable it is not something they do everyday. Knowing the law is more important. For those ERT/SWAT, they do train with use of firearm much more frequently because it is used more often.

Revolver has its place, it is just not the best tool when autoloader came out. 38SPL has less energy than 9mm, a typical 38spl revolver is a six shooter, a typical 9mm autoloader since 80s is 15 rounds magazine capacity. Assuming both have the same penetration, expansion, energy transfer (which they don't) 9mm auto loader still wins.
If you want to pull the 357magnum card, compared it to 357SIG (it's literally a 9mm in a 40S&W bottlenecked case) and the 357SIG still beats the 357magnum in a standard barrel length gun. (I'm talking 4" barrel for 357magnum since that's the most common barrel length for duty revolver)

We must have different reloading manuals. The revolver rounds are almost always a little faster then the similar rounds in the auto loaders, plus have the versatility of much heavier bullet weights. On the other hand, you can miss a lot more without reloading with the autoloader. - dan

 

[cp220]

The fbi are the subject matter experts when it comes to ammunition testing. I would suggest most major LE agencies request the fbi's test results when they do their ammunition testing. Theres no politics involved, just straight science.

If they say that something performs a certain way with regards to ammunition I am inclined to believe them.

High quality/reliable pistols shooting high quality 9mm ammunition, in the hands of someone trained to put those bullets where it counts, is a winning combination. Anyone who says otherwise is either ignorant, or making some sort of emotional argument.

 

[Canuck44]

small typo, was supposed to read "everything" not "everyone"

I was addressing comments that TDC didn't know what he was talking about in regards to the reasons they were switching. This has been talked about for months now on many US forums, where people in the know were relating why the switch was coming, and yeah, it's for the reasons a bunch of us, TDC included, have been saying for years, 9mm is simply the best choice, cost, ease of shooting it, capacity, ammo performance and so on. That doesn't mean the FBI looked at our comments in the past and went "hmm a bunch of Canadians think we should change" it just means that what we've been saying is right.
While there is a certain amount of truth to the post above detailing the typical arming and re-arming process that large agencies go through, you might notice that the FBI hasn't really followed that method, they did the initial change to 10mm, quickly figured out that was dumb, did the 40 and then sat there for a long long time before making this decision. This was not something undertaken by one or two people either, this was a massive process with a lot of departments being involved.

That's what I thought, apparently r34skyline missed the obvious or maybe he plays scrabble.

To be fair to the FBI they did spent a long time coming to this conclusion. A cynic might suggest the department head who made the decision to go with the .40 just retired making the latest decision less embarrassing.

Take Care

Bob
ps Your pullover is still hanging in my closet.

 

[Dexter Morgan]

We must have different reloading manuals. The revolver rounds are almost always a little faster then the similar rounds in the auto loaders, plus have the versatility of much heavier bullet weights. On the other hand, you can miss a lot more without reloading with the autoloader. - dan

I was thinking the same thing.

In my Lyman`s Manual; .38 Special uses a heavier bullet and more powder than 9mm.

And .357 Magnum loads are up near rifle ammo specs.

 

[yingtsay]

We must have different reloading manuals. The revolver rounds are almost always a little faster then the similar rounds in the auto loaders, plus have the versatility of much heavier bullet weights. On the other hand, you can miss a lot more without reloading with the autoloader.  - dan

I was thinking the same thing.

In my Lyman`s Manual; .38 Special uses a heavier bullet and more powder than 9mm.

And .357 Magnum loads are up near rifle ammo specs.

I highly doubt police like FBI would use reloading. Take Speer Gold-dot hollow point for example:
124gr 9mm comes out at 1220fps compared 38spl at 945fps.
125gr 357sig comes out at 1350fps compared to 125gr 357magnum at 1450fps
I'd rather have atleast double the magazine capacity than a revolver in today's world. Under stress when bullets fly towards you, your accuracy is will be crap.
To say you don't miss on a revolver is pretty ignorant, whether you miss your target or not on both system under 50m is from the shooter alone.

 

[NVShooter]

...To say you don't miss on a revolver is pretty ignorant,...

Did someone say that?

 

[Canuck44]

I
To say you don't miss on a revolver is pretty ignorant, whether you miss your target or not on both system under 50m is from the shooter alone.

You aren`t TDC so why write like he does. Nobody said `you don`t miss with revolvers`. One of his type is enough for any forum don`t you think.

Take Care

Bob

 

[KevinB]

Thread makes my head hurt...

I carry a 9mm

 

[Canuck44]

Does it really matter what the Famous But Inept are carrying other than for those who have to pay for the switch.

Take Care

Bob

 

[KevinB]

Well for me, it's my carry/duty gun - and I live in a 9mm world

For Canadian's (Non-LE) is a electronic argument for anything other than home defense aspects. I do think that the 9mm trend will continue - the RCMP issues 9mm, and I think that more Canadian LE Agencies will convert to 9mm, for various reasons, and the FBI switch will help that.

Other entities down in the US are switching to 9mm, and the FBI just puts more science behind it.

The FBI Defensive Systems Ballistics labs does some great stuff - and the only other lab that does similar is DHS's NFTTU in Altoona - which has also recommended 9mm for some time.

 

[crash277]

Well for me, it's my carry/duty gun - and I live in a 9mm world

For Canadian's (Non-LE) is a electronic argument for anything other than home defense aspects. I do think that the 9mm trend will continue - the RCMP issues 9mm, and I think that more Canadian LE Agencies will convert to 9mm, for various reasons, and the FBI switch will help that.

Other entities down in the US are switching to 9mm, and the FBI just puts more science behind it.

The FBI Defensive Systems Ballistics labs does some great stuff - and the only other lab that does similar is DHS's NFTTU in Altoona - which has also recommended 9mm for some time.

I find it almost comical that the military police don't use a 9mm but is regular military types do. I would make sence IMO that all the cdn Feds would use similar equipment as a crossover/cheaper option. But what do I know. I'm not in procurements lol

 

[NVShooter]

I find it almost comical that the military police don't use a 9mm but is regular military types do. I would make sence IMO that all the cdn Feds would use similar equipment as a crossover/cheaper option. But what do I know. I'm not in procurements lol

Not comical...if the MP are policing the regular troops, the notion is that they need more "firepower" than those they are policing. But I think I know what youre getting at and it makes sense assuming, more or less, that everyone's needs are somewhat equivalent.

 

[dan belisle]

I highly doubt police like FBI would use reloading. Take Speer Gold-dot hollow point for example:
124gr 9mm comes out at 1220fps compared 38spl at 945fps.
125gr 357sig comes out at 1350fps compared to 125gr 357magnum at 1450fps
I'd rather have atleast double the magazine capacity than a revolver in today's world. Under stress when bullets fly towards you, your accuracy is will be crap.
To say you don't miss on a revolver is pretty ignorant, whether you miss your target or not on both system under 50m is from the shooter alone.

Generally speaking, equivalent revolver rounds for modern revolvers (and yes there are many loads available for older weaker designs, but we'll set that aside for the moment) will be faster with similar bullet weights (more case capacity allows more powder, etc). As to the "missing" comment, I suggest you reread it. - dan

 

[Canuck44]

I find it almost comical that the military police don't use a 9mm but is regular military types do. I would make sence IMO that all the cdn Feds would use similar equipment as a crossover/cheaper option. But what do I know. I'm not in procurement's lol

Not comical at all. Municipal and Provincial police are not connected to the Federal Gov`t so there would be no advantage for procurement. Two different organizations. One is bound by the Haug Convention (Armed Forces) while the other is not (RCMP, Dept. of Fisheries aka Fish Cops, Municipal and Provincial Orgs.). RCMP do not use the same as as the Cdn Army although both use the 9MM round. The Feds, who are armed, all use the 9MM cartridge, albeit some with different bullets. The Provinces that I am aware of use the .40cal as do most Municipal forces. Some of the latter are better toys than the RCMP.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Canuck44]

Kevin with municipal taxes being what they are I would not expect a ground swell of electors rooting for changing calibers used by their local Police Departments based on what the FBI is doing. Not up here in Canada anyway. Police Departments fight for every nickle they can get to maintain their standards. Arguing for different caliber guns took place two or three decades ago. I would suggest it is a non starter in today`s environment.

Take Care

Bob