Have powder specs changed over the years? 4350 for example

kilohertz

kilohertz

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Hi guys,

Working up loads for 2 new to me rifles in 6.5X55, one an M/38 sporter and the other a 1968 Voere Kufstein. Read thru the post found here on hot loads for the 6.5

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1123180-6-5X55-Swede-hot-loads?highlight=6.5x55

but it really didn't answer my questions about 4350. I know there is IMR4350 and H4350 now, but the data between manuals is hugely different. For example my Speer manual 6th edition 1964 lists a start of 43 gr, max of 47 gr of 4350 behind a 140gr bullet. Then in 1995 12th ed. it lists 40 as start and 44 as max for 4350, this time specifying it as IMR4350.

So in your experience and knowledge, has 4350 changed over the years or is this legal specmanship being driven by corporate safety measures?

I am loading this morning up to 44gr max and off to the range with the Oehler and will check back later to see what info pops up here, and report my results. I could probably load the Voere a bit hotter as it is an M98 action, but will leave the old Swede at 44 or less depending on today's results.

I have loaded up the 120 gr bullets behind W760 and magnum primers 42-45gr.

Thanks all
 
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There has been no change in the powder, other than minute variation between different lots, which can go either way.
Loading companies are just super careful now. Use a chronograph and you will see that velocities with the newer lighter loads are away down, to what they are indicated as.
 
glycerin said:
At least one powder, W748 had a large change in burning rate(new lots). The max in lyman 47 was reduced by 3 gns in newer books.
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That's what I was afraid of...changes but no explanation in the loading books. Thanks for the info.

H4831, thank you..taking the Oehler 33 out for it's first test run today...just leaving now and will report back tonight. I only loaded up to 44gr for today...see how it looks and shoots. I'm also taking my 7X57 out for it's first load test as well. W760 and CCI250 and everything from 140-162gr bullets.

thanks
 
glycerin said:
At least one powder, W748 had a large change in burning rate(new lots). The max in lyman 47 was reduced by 3 gns in newer books.
Click to expand...

Really?, I would have to see this in writing from Olin, because my experience with W748 does not support your statement.

I have been using W748 for 25+ years now, and at present have some old stuff in metal tins, and some new stuff in the plastic containers.

In my 222 there is exactly 23 fps average difference between the old lot and the new, using the same 25.5 grain charge, so don't see a lot of change there.

Regards, Dave.
 
I don't know about changes in powder burning rates'but. I had a 96 that I loaded 42gr of IMR4350 with a 140gr bullet no problem. I used one on these in my 98 Voere and had a hard time opening the bolt. So be cautious .
 
The different load data you see is due the firearm that was used for the testing and this can effect things greatly. In the Lyman manual you will see loads worked up in a universal receiver using a pressure test barrel and a copper crusher or transducer to directly measure the pressure. These test barrels have chambers and bore at minimum SAAMI dimensions and will generate the highest pressures. In another manual you will see an actual firearm being used for the testing and these firearms have a strain gauge glued to the barrel and then calibrated with a known pressure cartridge. On top of this the manuals are using different cases with varying case capacity and components that effect the pressure.

As one example I have two AR15 rifles and a Savage bolt action that has a longer throat than either of my AR15 rifles.

The manuals also tell you that if you change lots of powders or any components to reduce the load and work up again.

The chart below came from "The Lucky Gunner" and an article on .223 and 5.56 pressures in short throated .223 and the longer throated 5.56. A strain gauge was used on both rifles but look at the far left green bar for factory .223 ammunition fired in a .223 rifle. The chamber pressure is only 49,000 psi and below the rated chamber pressure of 55,000 psi, meaning the factory ammunition is downloaded or else the strain gauge was not properly calibrated for the testing but the overall pressure figures do not suggest this. So my guess if the factory ammo is loaded below the rated pressure for that cartridge, I knew they did this with older designed cartridges but I never thought more modern cartridges would be loaded 6,000 psi below the rated pressure for that cartridge.

barnes-pressure_zps9347fe41.jpg
 
Just a quick update...everything shot just fine, with loads as I described above..no issues at all. Problem I had was with the Oehler, never did get it working. Got home and did some troubleshooting and found a broken wire in one of the skyscreens, right at the light sensor. Re-soldered it and off to the range again tomorrow.

Going to load up a few more rounds, adding 1/2 gr at at time and will report back. Just using 4350 and 760, in both my 6.5x55 and 7x57. I am going to leave the rounds as is, at book max, for the M/38, and sneak up the loads in the Voere. Don't want to stress the ol' girl.

Cheers
 
Speculate all you want about past published loads, but I can't imagine using 50.0 grs of H4350 behind a 140 gr bullet in the 6.5X55, in any gun. I stopped at 46.0 grs because primer pocket life became unsatisfactory, and my chrony was warning me of that.
 
Andy said:
Speculate all you want about past published loads, but I can't imagine using 50.0 grs of H4350 behind a 140 gr bullet in the 6.5X55, in any gun. I stopped at 46.0 grs because primer pocket life became unsatisfactory, and my chrony was warning me of that.
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Thanks Andy, that is what my plan is...to get the chrony working and test my current 44 gr of 4350 to see where it is, then take it up to 46-47 gr max and see if there are any pressure signs and see if the chrony jives with the book. My Voere has a 24" barrel. As I have been reading more, I feel 47gr must be an anomaly in the one manual.

cheers
 
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kilohertz said:
Thanks Andy, that is what my plan is...to get the chrony working and test my current 44 gr of 4350 to see where it is, then take it up to 46-47 gr max and see if there are any pressure signs and see if the chrony jives with the book. My Voere has a 24" barrel. As I have been reading more, I feel 49-50 must be an anomaly in the one manual.

cheers
Click to expand...

People will claim that they "have a fast barrel" and "there are no pressure signs", but IMO if anyone gets an MV in excess of 2800 fps in a 6.5X55 with a 140 gr bullet in a 26" barrel with H4350, they are exceeding 60K psi.
 
Andy said:
People will claim that they "have a fast barrel" and "there are no pressure signs", but IMO if anyone gets an MV in excess of 2800 fps in a 6.5X55 with a 140 gr bullet in a 26" barrel with H4350, they are exceeding 60K psi.
Click to expand...

My experience with the 6.5x55 [wore out 2 barrels on my 700 Classic so chambered] lead me to agree with Andy on this one. In a 26", 1-9 twist custom barrel, [Pac-Nor 3 groove] I got 2820 using Norma MRP at 49 grains. Brass life was excellent.

In the 24" 1-8 twist Shilen, I was not able to quite reach 2800, using 1 grain less powder. 2782 avg with the 140 Partition.

I also have a 1-8 twist Lothar-Walther, 26" long on a 721 action, chambered in 6.5x55AI. It is good for an additional 100-125 fps with the 140 grain bullets, using Vihtavuori N560 or the now obsolete Winchester WXR.

The 50 grain load of 4350 sounds way too hot to me, since the powders I have used are all considerably slower than the 4350's, and I did not use 50 grains of them, let alone 4350.

Regards, Dave.
 
HI Guys,

Just got home from an AWESOME day at the range...everything went as planned and I got the Oehler working and things just shot perfectly....I'll give you the details once I get settled in and have a beverage....for now...the load data seems pretty good...and I didn't load anything hotter than I indicated above, and nowhere near 49 gr of 4350.

cheers
 
Well, we had an 8 hour power outage last night so I didn't get around to an update....

So the Oehler was an easy fix, a wire had come off the photo resistor inside the skyscreen, re-soldered that and it now works great! Set it up with the Browning T-Bolt and it shot 1250 fps within about 20 fps for 10 shots...pretty good.

With the 6.5X55 Voere and 24" 1-9 twist barrel, and 140 gr Hornady SST, 44gr 4350, CCI200 primers, I shot 2700 - 2720 fps in 5 shots...not too bad for my first loading. I think I will just leave it at that and not try to get any more out of it. It's a nice comfy load and the rifle seems to like it.

With my 7X57, same type Voere with 24" barrel, and 139 gr Hornady BTSP and W 760 powder and CCI250 primers the following

46.5 gr - 2693 fps
48.5 gr - 2886 fps
50.4 gr - 2934 fps
52.4 gr - 3024 fps

and everything else the same except 162 gr Hornady A-Max

47 gr - 2678 fps
49 gr - 2875 fps
49.5 gr - 2880 fps

So all in all, an excellent day of shooting and figuring things out. I'm happy with the loads and will continue tweaking and testing various loads and COL to see if I can improve grouping etc.

Thanks for all the help!

Cheers
 
The canister grades of 4350 have not changed over the years. But there seems to me more lawyers than shooters at the powder companies these days.

The shooter still has to start low and work up. There can be a big variation between barrels and chambers. If you have a Chrony, consider the max velocity in the book as a speed limit. Give some consideration to their barrel length vs yours and type of actions involved.
 
I have used W748 for at least as long. I recently purchased 8 pounds in a plastic bottle. I mixed it all with the two pounds I had on hand and used the same load in the 308Win I have since I developed it 25 years ago. I took it out and ran the shots over a Chrony and the overall average velocity over 20 shots was identical to the records I have kept over that entire period. I am talking about a 25 fps spread over each of 6 tests of this load.

Glycerin, your information comes from the litigation cautious recently printed manuals. I won't tell you not to follow the recommendations of the manuals but they are just making sure their information won't cause them to get a lawsuit. I will continue to use the load data I have in my personal manual.

As far as my Chrony states, nothing has changed.


Quote Originally Posted by glycerin View Post

At least one powder, W748 had a large change in burning rate(new lots). The max in lyman 47 was reduced by 3 gns in newer books.
Really?, I would have to see this in writing from Olin, because my experience with W748 does not support your statement.

I have been using W748 for 25+ years now, and at present have some old stuff in metal tins, and some new stuff in the plastic containers.

In my 222 there is exactly 23 fps average difference between the old lot and the new, using the same 25.5 grain charge, so don't see a lot of change there.

Regards, Dave.
 
My Speer #7 manual published in 1966 has these loads for the .300 Win and 4350. Hodgdon wrote the powder section and never mentioned an H4350 just an IMR4350. Interestingly he refers to 4831 as Hodgdon IMR 4831 which makes you think that he knew what he was selling.

180 grain Speer, 75 grains of 4350

Hodgdons website 71 grains of IMR 4350 and 67 grains of H4350. Same bullet. Feeling lucky?
 
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