Frustrated and Need help, inconsistent groups

Chinbullco said:
Are you sure? I have a Kreiger .3075" groove barrel, use Lapua Palma brass, launching a 155 gr at 3075 fps. Cleaned it before shooting, cleaned it again at 50 rnds and 100 rnds. Then it was cleaned after a couple of shoots at 400 rnds. Have close to 600 rnds down the tube and it shoots fine. I've already saved 27 unnecessary cleanings. Cleaning fetish?
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All depends on the application , if your trying to shoot small groups in sbr we call you road kill !
 
hello Chinbullco.

I would like to know what you mean by" it shoots fine" when you talk about your kreiger
Butch Fisher article in the Lymans book is not my invention. Tell me a bit about your accuracy.
Palma brass and 3075 fps . is this a new standard for accuracy ?
Personnally, I beleive fouling exists, do you ?
 
Sw. Mauserman said:
hello Chinbullco.

I would like to know what you mean by" it shoots fine" when you talk about your kreiger
Butch Fisher article in the Lymans book is not my invention. Tell me a bit about your accuracy.
Palma brass and 3075 fps . is this a new standard for accuracy ?
Personnally, I beleive fouling exists, do you ?
Click to expand...

Tell me what cleaning every 15 / 20 improves. Do you have before and after groups to verify your opinion. I can see that cleaning frequency if shooting in rain or snow, if using a large overbore cartridge, or in a rifle that is only shot a few times on a hunting trip. Who is Butch Fisher? What leads him to that opinion?
My 308 is F-T rifle. Built for F-class competition. Five 15 round relays with 2 sighters per relay, relays at 300, 500, 700, 800 and 900 meters for score makes up a typical week-end shoot, 100 rnds is usually enough. To win or be in the running requires being able to run under 1 MOA at all those distances. Accuracy, wind reading skills, trigger skills, equipment all come play. Cleaning my 308 upsets velocity for 8/9 rounds and needs about 25 rounds down the spout to return to its former accuracy. Fouling is a byproduct of shooting.

As pesky ab stated I would be roadkill in SRBR. Or would I? SRBR shooters that use moly-coated bullets aren't cleaning that often. I would like to shoot SRBR but there is such little interest in it. Too bad.
 
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Chinbullco said:
Tell me what cleaning every 15 / 20 improves. Do you have before and after groups to verify your opinion. I can see that cleaning frequency if shooting in rain or snow, if using a large overbore cartridge, or in a rifle that is only shot a few times on a hunting trip. Who is Butch Fisher? What leads him to that opinion?
My 308 is F-T rifle. Built for F-class competition. Five 15 round relays with 2 sighters per relay, relays at 300, 500, 700, 800 and 900 meters for score makes up a typical week-end shoot, 100 rnds is usually enough. To win or be in the running requires being able to run under 1 MOA at all those distances. Accuracy, wind reading skills, trigger skills, equipment all come play. Cleaning my 308 upsets velocity for 8/9 rounds and needs about 25 rounds down the spout to return to its former accuracy. Fouling is a byproduct of shooting.

As pesky ab stated I would be roadkill in SRBR. Or would I? SRBR shooters that use moly-coated bullets aren't cleaning that often. I would like to shoot SRBR but there is such little interest in it. Too bad.
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I wrote a very long text and lost every thing

I will be quick
Jim Sweet won about every thing in Australia and here is what he says, page 77 of the last edition
" Bench rest test show group sizes start to en large after 20 round and 30 for stainless barrels...carefull shooters rub with wd-40 after every shoot....On very hot days, use solventafter every shoot, dry out then rub with oily brush...dry out ready for next match on same day'

I quit now, scared to lose all again
 
I think it all depends on the individual barrel.
Some very accurate (1/4 moa 200yd) .308's of my intimate aquaintance, seem to care less if they are ever cleaned. They show black at the muzzle. No sign of copper fouling.

My .265"-.266" bored 6.5x55 mil barrels are the opposite ... normal .4 moa grouping falls off to .6-.7 after 25 ... max of 40, rounds .. and then snugs back up after a good scrub. The opening of groups tends to manifest with the onset of visible copper at the muzzle.
 
Given my interest in LR F class, I'll throw in this observation.

How often do SBR or LRBR shooters tune their loads to a dirty barrel? I am guessing not often as that is not common protocol.

By contrast, F class shooters have no choice but to shoot with barrels with very high rd counts. I will be heading to the US where the average rd count each day will be around 70 to 75 rds. 3X20 shot relays plus sighters and some relays allow for unlimited sighters before moving to score.

So, no matter what we do, by BR standards our barrels are filthy. Yet with the right wind calls, hits on a 1/2 min X ring at 1000yds happen very often. In fact in F open, you better stitch that X ring if conditions are stable.

To hit that size of target on demand and account for the vagueries of the wind, F class rifles have to shoot in the 2's to no more then the 4's at distance to give the shooter a chance at hitting that X ring. Even when dirty, top tier F rifles still shoot very well.

I had the pleasure of scoring for a shooter using a 7mm something or other. We gave up moving the spotter as he kept hitting it and it took way too much time to patch it. We decided it was better to get the target back up in the air so he could send another shot.

8 shots fired into a group that was under 4" (spotter is 3.5" ) in very tricky and gusty winds. 17rds in total, that group was maybe 8" with only 1 shot in the 9. Yes, that was by far the best target of those shot nearby and truly an impressive display of wind reading BUT without a rifle that could hold super tight groups, he could never place those shots.

It was later in the day so that barrel had seen at least 2 relays - 44 to 50 rds.

Given the format at most Canadian matches, not all shooters will clean their rifles. A match can be over 200rds and that rifle better be capable of hitting the V bull on the very last shot. In fact, I got to see the winner of this years Westerns blow out the spindle on his very last shot to win in a decisive manner. I don't think he cleaned all match long.

Perfect, no... but there are ways to work around fouling in load tuning and LR accuracy.

Jerry
 
good useful info in all the reply's, inconsistent groups have only 2 causes, mechanical or technic ( either loading or bench )
 
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I totally agree Jerry, I'm one of the few who shoot with preloaded rounds, ( meaning I do not load at the competition, I have learned I need at least 2-3 different loads to shoot a days match due to temp variances ), I am also the only second guy I know who does not clean his gun until a complete match is done, so that be 5 rnds plus sighters, usually 3-5 per target X 5 targets per match, not as much as you guys for sure, I admit I am not in the top 5 but I have taken a few low scores a time or two, but then I don't practise either,my wind reading abilities suck, I just load up and go to pester the better shooters for better reloading info
Mystic Precision said:
Given my interest in LR F class, I'll throw in this observation.

How often do SBR or LRBR shooters tune their loads to a dirty barrel? I am guessing not often as that is not common protocol.

By contrast, F class shooters have no choice but to shoot with barrels with very high rd counts. I will be heading to the US where the average rd count each day will be around 70 to 75 rds. 3X20 shot relays plus sighters and some relays allow for unlimited sighters before moving to score.

So, no matter what we do, by BR standards our barrels are filthy. Yet with the right wind calls, hits on a 1/2 min X ring at 1000yds happen very often. In fact in F open, you better stitch that X ring if conditions are stable.

To hit that size of target on demand and account for the vagueries of the wind, F class rifles have to shoot in the 2's to no more then the 4's at distance to give the shooter a chance at hitting that X ring. Even when dirty, top tier F rifles still shoot very well.

I had the pleasure of scoring for a shooter using a 7mm something or other. We gave up moving the spotter as he kept hitting it and it took way too much time to patch it. We decided it was better to get the target back up in the air so he could send another shot.

8 shots fired into a group that was under 4" (spotter is 3.5" ) in very tricky and gusty winds. 17rds in total, that group was maybe 8" with only 1 shot in the 9. Yes, that was by far the best target of those shot nearby and truly an impressive display of wind reading BUT without a rifle that could hold super tight groups, he could never place those shots.

It was later in the day so that barrel had seen at least 2 relays - 44 to 50 rds.

Given the format at most Canadian matches, not all shooters will clean their rifles. A match can be over 200rds and that rifle better be capable of hitting the V bull on the very last shot. In fact, I got to see the winner of this years Westerns blow out the spindle on his very last shot to win in a decisive manner. I don't think he cleaned all match long.

Perfect, no... but there are ways to work around fouling in load tuning and LR accuracy.

Jerry
Click to expand...
 
It is funny how we all talked about cleaning when the post was a reloading problems.

In conclusion, we have to do what works best for us.

I am an open sight shooter, from another generation, having great fun at 300 yds with my swedish mausers, and looking for more distance.

But as we say in french, I have a pig head and I agree with Fisher and Sweet that better shooters are fastidious cleaners

cheers guys !

Mystic Precision said:
Given my interest in LR F class, I'll throw in this observation.

How often do SBR or LRBR shooters tune their loads to a dirty barrel? I am guessing not often as that is not common protocol.

By contrast, F class shooters have no choice but to shoot with barrels with very high rd counts. I will be heading to the US where the average rd count each day will be around 70 to 75 rds. 3X20 shot relays plus sighters and some relays allow for unlimited sighters before moving to score.

So, no matter what we do, by BR standards our barrels are filthy. Yet with the right wind calls, hits on a 1/2 min X ring at 1000yds happen very often. In fact in F open, you better stitch that X ring if conditions are stable.

To hit that size of target on demand and account for the vagueries of the wind, F class rifles have to shoot in the 2's to no more then the 4's at distance to give the shooter a chance at hitting that X ring. Even when dirty, top tier F rifles still shoot very well.

I had the pleasure of scoring for a shooter using a 7mm something or other. We gave up moving the spotter as he kept hitting it and it took way too much time to patch it. We decided it was better to get the target back up in the air so he could send another shot.

8 shots fired into a group that was under 4" (spotter is 3.5" ) in very tricky and gusty winds. 17rds in total, that group was maybe 8" with only 1 shot in the 9. Yes, that was by far the best target of those shot nearby and truly an impressive display of wind reading BUT without a rifle that could hold super tight groups, he could never place those shots.

It was later in the day so that barrel had seen at least 2 relays - 44 to 50 rds.

Given the format at most Canadian matches, not all shooters will clean their rifles. A match can be over 200rds and that rifle better be capable of hitting the V bull on the very last shot. In fact, I got to see the winner of this years Westerns blow out the spindle on his very last shot to win in a decisive manner. I don't think he cleaned all match long.

Perfect, no... but there are ways to work around fouling in load tuning and LR accuracy.

Jerry
Click to expand...
 
Sw. Mauserman said:
It is funny how we all talked about cleaning when the post was a reloading problems.

In conclusion, we have to do what works best for us.

I am an open sight shooter, from another generation, having great fun at 300 yds with my swedish mausers, and looking for more distance.

But as we say in french, I have a pig head and I agree with Fisher and Sweet that better shooters are fastidious cleaners

cheers guys !
Click to expand...

Post #38 by you went into the "clean your rifle" rant. You talked bout the cleaning problem. Nobody tunes for a dirty barrel on a competition rifle, they just keep shooting and hope the gun keeps running.
 
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Cleaning a rifle every 20 rds is effing ludicrous. Clean It when you can see groups consistently open up. If I strip my C14 Sniper rifle of all copper it takes 5-7 rds to come back to zero. Yes I have a CCB hold but at 800m its an educated guess at best. I'm with the others that seem to think its an ammo manufacturing issue. Runout is killer, neck tension is killer and work hardened brass is killer. I found all this out the hard way. But I'm lazy and said eff all of that. 1 MOA for tactical ammo is good enough for me!
 
So I shot the last of the loads I had, annealed the necks and did up some more loads with more powder now running 42.5-43.5 gr of N140 and have found a great node to tune up, if I go higher than 43.5 the groups start to open up again, so I will play around with the 42.5-43.5 grains and see if I can tune them up a bit more. Not sure on velocity yet, I didn't have the time to set up for that.

Question to those of you using N140 how the heck are you getting 46 grains in a .308 Lapua case??? I tried up to 44.5 and the case was full to the bottom of the neck and compressed when I seated the bullet, the case sure is not going to hold 46 grains !
 
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