AR Vs XCR

Wolverine Guy said:
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying they are flawless but I do find the negative side to be greatly exaggerated and I do not know of a single mass produced firearm manufacturer that only has a 1 in 10,000 failure rate.
I have worked with firearms with much higher failure rates than the XCR's. My guess is that due to the volume of XCR's in the country and the fairly niche market leads to the perception that there are more problems with these rifles than there really are.
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Thanks for jumping in with your experience with the platform. If anyone has an actual idea of the true rate of failure of the rifle it would be you.
I've been interested in the XCR since they first came to Canada but after shooting a few of them and reading all the posts with guys having problems I've never been able to justify the price of one. Some guys claim they shoot 1 moa or close to it but the vast majority can't consistently do 3 moa, this isn't really a huge problem for me since I understand the rifle was designed as a battle rifle and not a DMR but when I read about all the problems and then watch my buddy have his gas system fall apart when we were at the range, not sure what he was doing or how it happened but we got it back together and finished the day.
I don't think it's the rifle it's claimed to be by it's faithful owners, the keymod is a huge improvement in the weight department but the barrel retention system still needs work. The only way it seems to get consistent groups with an -L is to wait 2-3 minutes between shots which kinda defeats the point of a semi auto.
I don't think it's a bad rifle but to me it's a $1500 rifle with a $1000 non restricted price boost. For the money I think there are better options out there.

Thank you for the phenomenal service you provide for the rifle, I don't even own one and I appreciate what you are doing and respect your business ethics.
 
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I truly do not believe this is a sub-moa rifle. The quick change caliber system does not lend itself to this. I figure the rifle can shoot 1-3 moa depending on many factors. If the rifle has a good shooter, good optics, well maintained rifle (barrel retaining bolt tightened to 250 in/lbs, well lubricated and gas setting set correctly, among other things) and a load tailored to the rifle then it should be at the lower end of the scale and groups will generally spread when one or more of these factors are not met.
There are a number of rifles that come in for warranty that can be traced back to poor maintenance (or none) and lack of familiarity with the platform.
I had a rifle in last week that would not fire (quad rail XCR-L in 7.62x39). We had originally diagnosed over the phone that it was likely a hammer spring that was weak so we sent a new one out that did not solve the problem.
The customer brought the rifle in last week (he was the second owner and had cleaned it up from when he had got it but it was very easy to tell it had a very rough life). Our initial thought was that the barrel had eroded so badly that the round was too far into the chamber for the firing pin to strike (yes, it was that bad, gas system was corroded solid as well), so we replaced the barrel. Test firing resulted in no better results, so we started to look deeper into it. Wolfgang and myself looked at it and studied both of us thinking something does not look right. Then the eureka moment, the bolt catch had been taken out and installed backwards resulting in the hammer not making contact with the firing pin. 30 seconds later rifle is up and running again.
A final point, I was in a local match this weekend and 1st and 3rd places went to guy's running XCR's
 
I have a new AR15A4 (20" govt profile barrel), and a new XCR-l keymod light barrel. I love them both and they have learned to share me with my other black metal mistresses! I suggest buying both! As a side note, because I dont have my either sighted in yet, the balance on the XCR feels a bit better than the AR and slightly lighter... ergonomics on both rifles are excellent, though im becoming more and more of a fan of the left side charging handle (but the Raptor I put on the AR is awesome). In the end, if I had to decide.... Id sell my nephew and buy both!
 
@ cr
Brother, on this whole forum you've been the loudest voice against the XCR. I've taken it with a grain of salt, figuring you're talking about personal experience with your own rifle.
Post #41 says otherwise.

Now it's clear, you're just full of sh!t

Have a happy face :).
 
This thread is about the OP choosing between an XCR and an AR. I've stated that if classification isn't a concern then the AR is a superior rifle. That's an opinion I have and which I'm entitled to and is shared with a lot of members of this site. If the XCR was a superior rifle it would be used somewhere by a military or law enforcement group but it's not. Guys like you two get all defensive and try to throw classification into the equation as a way it is superior but to some that doesn't mater and in reality that is the only department the XCR is superior. For double the money of a decent AR it is not double the rifle and if you compare an equally priced AR then it is nowhere near the rifle an AR is.
You spent your money on the XCR and you like it, that's great but for me it is an inferior product that the manufacturer still needs to do a few tweaks on and also needs to work on some quality control issues. I do like the rifle and the new keymod model is a huge step in the right direction but it isn't enough.

Shooting 4 -L versions and an -M doesn't give a guy a right to comment? Compared to your one or maybe two XCR's you've shot? As an owner you will be biased towards the rifle but being in my shoes as someone that likes the idea of the rifle and wishes they were better than they are and shooting 4 different -L versions spread out throughout the years they have been available to see each revision probably makes me less full of it that either of you. If they were a better rifle I would own one, but sadly they are not.
I would take any of my AR's, either of the HK SL8-4's that I've owned, the RFB I sold, even the Swiss Arms target I sold or a Tavor that I wasn't impressed with over an XCR. The cost isn't a concern to me if I think the rifle is worth it, the XCR is not a $2200-$2500 rifle in my opinion.
Black rifles come and go through my collection regularly but my ACR fills the void right now and probably will for some time.

I've been following the XCR since they were first brought into Canada because I've always wanted one but they have never gotten consistent positive reviews or range reports to justify the price. The ones I've shot have never been very accurate and all of my friends that owned them have sold them because they didn't perform to expectations (except for my buddy with the -M but he barely ever uses it). If they are so great and I'm so full of crap then why are there so many negative threads? There are far more threads with guys having problems than guys that don't. Like I said before, we all know the negatives are amplified on the internet but I have yet to see a single range report where the guy claiming his rifle shoots an inch at a hundred yards can actually back it up with a picture of a target that didn't have flyers all over the place. Even the thread with the 10000 round report the guy has had to replace numerous parts. Then there was the guy who was shooting sub moa with 55gr Fiocci off the back of his truck, who ditched the rifle not long after posting pics of targets, where is the guy he sold it to bragging about how accurate this unicorn of the XCR world is?
Great customer service from Wolverine doesn't make this a great rifle. If it was a great rifle we would never hear about problems and would only see posts about how happy owners are.
Rob Arms still has a few more bugs to work out.

I'm glad you love your rifle but don't get mad at me or say I'm full of it because my opinion is different from yours. I'm not basing my information purely on what I've read from the internet, I have hands on experience with more than one XCR and many other rifles so instead of getting defensive and argumentative just brush it off and go out shooting. Enjoy your rifle and I'll enjoy mine.
 
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Not to jump all over you here with big boots cr5, but I do kind of agree with the sentiment the above have said. You do the same thing to the Tavor and we are going to change that when we get together! ;) enough with the gun snobbery! Haha :p

This being said I to am wary of the XCR's but have never had the chance to shoot one. The ACR with an 18.5" conversion would be my choice out of the ACR, AR, and XCR.
 
Far from having CR5 experience with the black rifles stuff, in the last year i shot some Tavor's (3 ), some XCR-L and M, one RFB, one SU-16,and a T97 while working proprely ( some failures in the XCR platform ) none of these rifle came close in accuracy to any of my AR's and my 4 AR'S ( 5.56 and 308 ) just had one failure total all together...
Like it was said before if those rifles were selling close to 1000.00 like the 97, and still be NR, nothing would be said... At around 2500.00 you expect near perfection... A FNAR that cost sub 2 K is a lot better rifle overall accuracy and reliability wise... The NR thing is irrelevant here, the rifle need to deliver performance here, you are in KAC territory ( price wise), shall i say more... JP.
 
onetwentyish said:
Not to jump all over you here with big boots cr5, but I do kind of agree with the sentiment the above have said. You do the same thing to the Tavor and we are going to change that when we get together! ;) enough with the gun snobbery! Haha :p

This being said I to am wary of the XCR's but have never had the chance to shoot one. The ACR with an 18.5" conversion would be my choice out of the ACR, AR, and XCR.
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I'm not being a snob, I love all firearms but I form opinions based on my experience with them and whatever I can dig up for information. If I think one is better than another I will buy that one and when someone asks for opinions on this open forum I will state my opinion. Then when someone argues and says I'm wrong because their one experience was different so I must be wrong even though I've read 200 posts from guys who had the experience I'm describing I'll argue back.
I don't get upset or even really care, I'm usually just bored at work and don't mind stepping into sh!t and getting called names. No one has to agree with me, but I don't have to agree with anyone else either. Buy whatever you want and enjoy the sport but if I can help someone skip out on a costly purchase they didn't need to make then I will try to do that. Just like I'll never buy another mini-14, I hated the one I owned and will always tell guys to go a different direction if they are undecided. I do the same with the T-97, why would anyone spend $900 on a rifle with no warranty then drop another $400 for a rail? Doesn't make sense to me.

The Tavor is the same thing to me, it's a good rifle but it just doesn't do anything for me and give me the I gotta have one of those feelings. I've shot a few Tavors and each time the reaction is the same. If it was $1500 to $2000 I'd probably give one a try and see if it grew on me but for now it's too expensive for a rifle that doesn't excite me.
 
cr5 said:
I'm not being a snob, I love all firearms but I form opinions based on my experience with them and whatever I can dig up for information. If I think one is better than another I will buy that one and when someone asks for opinions on this open forum I will state my opinion. Then when someone argues and says I'm wrong because their one experience was different so I must be wrong even though I've read 200 posts from guys who had the experience I'm describing I'll argue back.
I don't get upset or even really care, I'm usually just bored at work and don't mind stepping into sh!t and getting called names. No one has to agree with me, but I don't have to agree with anyone else either. Buy whatever you want and enjoy the sport but if I can help someone skip out on a costly purchase they didn't need to make then I will try to do that. Just like I'll never buy another mini-14, I hated the one I owned and will always tell guys to go a different direction if they are undecided. I do the same with the T-97, why would anyone spend $900 on a rifle with no warranty then drop another $400 for a rail? Doesn't make sense to me.

The Tavor is the same thing to me, it's a good rifle but it just doesn't do anything for me and give me the I gotta have one of those feelings. I've shot a few Tavors and each time the reaction is the same. If it was $1500 to $2000 I'd probably give one a try and see if it grew on me but for now it's too expensive for a rifle that doesn't excite me.
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Tavor MSRP has dropped as of yesterday, lightly used rifles will be in well your budget soon! ;)
 
onetwentyish said:
Tavor MSRP has dropped as of yesterday, lightly used rifles will be in well your budget soon! ;)
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I'll just shoot yours and convert you to an ACR lover once you try mine with the 300 Blackout conversion.
Soon you'll also own an AR, once you see the true awesomness of a quality AR you won't be able to resist coming to the dark side.
 
9x19p said:
@ cr
Brother, on this whole forum you've been the loudest voice against the XCR. I've taken it with a grain of salt, figuring you're talking about personal experience with your own rifle.
Post #41 says otherwise.

Now it's clear, you're just full of sh!t

Have a happy face :).
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are we really back to having experience with a product and the right to talk about that experience requires ownership?

Let me guess, if someone financing a car or paying a mortgage on their home you also dismiss anything they have to say about those items because they don't own them.
 
Brian46 said:
are we really back to having experience with a product and the right to talk about that experience requires ownership?

Let me guess, if someone financing a car or paying a mortgage on their home you also dismiss anything they have to say about those items because they don't own them.
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The problem with your analogy is the people financing the car in your scenario are driving that car, living with that car and therefor have direct personal experience to relate. A more accurate analogy would be be something along the lines of someone writing a lemon aid review on a car they saw their neighbor driving and had the opportunity once to sit in once. Get it?
CR5 has self admittedly no REAL long term personal experience with the XCR, yet he takes every opportunity to say it is at least $1000 overpriced for whatever the OP of the day has in mind. And of course everyone would be better off with his ACR. I get it, he likes his ACR. I like my XCR, but I don't go around telling everyone the ACR is a waste of money because they can buy an XCR with multiple caliber conversions for the same or less money.
 
Brian46 said:
Because you didn't have a problem with the xcr does not mean that others did not, there is already a few in this thread that have posted they are not reliable from their own experience with them. You can't use your experience as a means to discount others experiences
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Yes, have you noticed I said recent XCR?
I am not saying XCR has been perfect. The earlier models had issues, but XCR are more reliable than earlier models.

So if you have any recent experience with the XCR, please do share. And also share the threads that have issues with recent XCR.
ALL guns have issues, even ACR or AR15.


And Cr5, not sure why you are so against the XCR.
Every thread that has XCR in it, you will always mention XCR is only a 3 MOA gun even when the OP is not asking for accuracy.
Maybe you don't see problems with the ACR as much because they don't sell that many in Canada?
We get you love your ACR and you think it is the best gun out there. But there are other guns out there...not just the ACR.
So you are asking how many rounds I have shoot through the XCRs? More than the experience you have with XCR.

Cr5, how much do you think a NR ACR is worth? How about the restricted ACR?
The restricted ACR is definitely not worth $2500 new.
 
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hbean said:
The fact the XCR has more in common with the AK than AR make all this comparison and argument pointless!

:kickInTheNuts::dancingbanana::nest::HR:d:h:Laugh2
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About the only thing the XCR has in common with the AK is the gas piston. The mag release, safety, grip, ergonomics, etc are all much more similar to the AR. The simple fact that one is restricted and the othre is non restricted is what makes this whole argument pointless lol. The OP needs to decide what he wants it for, then chose what is most appropriate for him.
 
own both an AR and an xcr, i love my xcr its the newer model right before they went to the keymod version, i havnt had any failures either than one fte on gas setting s with crap ammo, it chews up m193 on s without failures and american eagle and other cheap brass 223 on 1. love that its NR and take it everywhere.
 
So only shooting a couple hundred rounds through a rifle isn't enough experience with one to have an opinion? I don't need to live with a rifle to shoot a couple hundred rounds through a few different ones and form an opinion based on my experience and the experiences of others in the community. I don't need to own a Mercedes to know they are a good car either, I've driven a few and read reviews and even toured a factory in Germany. I know they are good cars and if I needed a nice car to feel good about myself I'd own one. For now my Subaru Impreza does just fine, is fun to drive and a great winter car as well.
Just because your rifle has been good to you doesn't mean the majority of them are, although according to Mr.Wolverine there are a lot less with trouble than we have been led to believe.

You guys sound just like the guys who refuse to acknowledge that Norinco ammo is garbage and every round fired is a risk to your rifle. There have been so many threads started about problems with Norinco ammo yet any time I say it's junk I get jumped on by guys saying "I've fired thousands of rounds without problem". That doesn't make it good ammo, it means you have been lucky so far and it was the guy behind you in line that got the bad crate.

Maybe some XCR owners just hate their rifles and like coming on here to complain about them but I keep seeing threads about guys having issues.


I don't hate the XCR and I'm not against them, I've stated many times that I've wanted one since they were first released in Canada but won't spend $2500 on a rifle that just seems to get mostly negative feedback in the forums.
I don't only search Canadian sources for problems with the ACR, I'm also a member of a US forum called ACRforum.com and have searched through hundreds of posts and articles researching whether or not I wanted to buy the rifle. I do the same thing with anything I'm interested in.
I don't think the ACR is the best rifle ever made or the best available but it is a big step up from an XCR. If I didn't think it was a better rifle I would own an XCR and I wouldn't have invested even more money in it to make it non restricted and then even more money to build a non restricted 300 Blackout conversion, and then even more money for a Questar 6.8SPC II barrel.
How many times do I need to say that I think the XCR is getting better every generation but they still have a ways to go. When they address the barrel retention issue I may just buy one. Like I said, I handled an XCR-M keymod last week and was very impressed with how much lighter it is than the old one. It's a huge step in the right direction but Rob Ams still has a little more to go.

Honestly, if the AR were non restricted I wouldn't even look at these other rifles. I don't hold much hope of us ever seeing that again but I do at least hope to see the stupid laws restricting magazine limits abolished. If we can win that fight then the comments I made about problems with AR mags feeding x39 in the other thread one of you didn't like will become our problems here in Canada and all the 7.62x39 XCR owners will be on here asking why they can't get their rifle to feed properly with a mag more than 1/3 full.
 
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Took the afternoon off. Screw hrv's, I wanna try melting my sub2k! Was in the shop, with the new xcr l keymod in my hand....almost left with it. (the m4v7 they had was gone already) Man, I'm having one hell of a time trying to decide, this is getting frustrating. To be putting 2500 on a xcr l, just because it's NR...I just don't know. Sure, it is nice enough, but there are some pretty slick sbr's out there for less. Hell, I could get a decent DD AND a t97 for that cash..

I need a good punch in the face, straighten me out a bit ;)

lovin' the sub2k more and more btw. That's about 400rds now (1200 ttl) without a single failure. Wow, maybe nutn' was right after all, lol!
 
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