a question for rifle accuracy enthusiasts

T

truenorth777

BANNED
BANNED
BANNED
Rating - 100%
30   0   0
o.k., i'm new to rifle accuracy pursuits and reloading.

ladder loading 5 groups of 3 rds. for a bolt action, i get 3 out the 5 groups shooting .8" @ 100 meters.

not a bad start, i thought, but next time out [with all identical components] i get 2" groups.

two things different: since i had problems ejecting and even chambering rounds previously i tightened my sizing die down one quarter turn more.

this time out, all cycled smoothly, except one cartidge was just slightly tight ejecting, but did come out o.k. - so, problem solved there.

also, i had previously cleaned my barrel with a copper brush and Hoppe's 9 powder solvent followed by patches until dry.

but after shooting the .8" groups i just used wet then dry patches, [with hoppe's again].

by my recollection EVERY other variable remained the same.

so, anyone have any ideas on this? sizing change? [not sure how to get around that, and still chamber/eject smoothly],

or cleaning method, [back to the original method]?

or maybe something else i'm overlooking?

...thanks for any input.
 
Last edited:
1. Define your interpretation of ladder test. If you're shooting groups at 100 yards, you're not doing a ladder test, unless I'm misinterpretting what you've written. Do yourself a massive favour & back your ladder test (one round of each successive charge at the same POA) out to 300 yards or more. This will seperate produced velocity results much more difinitively according to the nodes.

2. If everything was the same between both shooting sessions, either you're not shooting / performing the same or something has changed with your rifle.

3. If you had a problem (however slight) with ejecting (I assume you mean extracting from the chamber), how did you solve it? I would be cautious with that load, as you have not "solved" anything simply by getting the case out of the rifle. This is most often an indication of excessive pressure. I hope you noted which charge this happened with and until you eliminate all other variables, call this one your rifle's max '+' (stay below this charge).

4. Turning your sizing die down 1/4 turn more will most certainly change things but I would not look to this as one of the foremost defining variables in your results between the two shooting sessions.

I wouldn't worry at all about your cleaning method. In fact, I wouldn't even clean at all until I was done testing, unless your tests run over several dozen rounds. And even then it may not be necessary, depending on your barrel, the calibre, your accuracy expectations (based on reality), etc.... I say leave the damn thing alone. What are you shooting, anyway?

Are you using all the same components? Is all the brass from the same manufacturer? Some will go as far as only using (or at least seperating by) lot numbers on brass but I think you'll cross that bridge some other time. Using mixed brass for load development is akin to trying to appease your ex wife - it won't matter what you do, the response will rarely be what you expect it should be!

Rooster
 
Ladder testing doesn't tell you much about accuracy. Only tells you where a particular load hits. However, you need to provide more info. For example, what's the load?
Chambering issues, will be one thing. Ejection issues(that will have nothing to do with the load), another. Like 358Rooster says, extraction and ejection are very different things.
Did you prepare the cases correctly? As in, check case lengths, trim, chamfer and deburr as required and FL resize? All new brass requires that. Is it even new brass?
 
Ladder testing does tell you a lot about accuracy if done properly. Not all new brass needs trimming, chamfering, deburring, or even FL sizing. Once again mr sunshine proves he has little to no experience with the subject at hand.
 
o.k., once fired brass, remington. tumbled, measured [in spec], ...same primers, bullets, and powder throughout this whole process.

i'm loading at and below manual recommended max loads, in groups of three rounds. five different powder charges stepping down a half grain each.

thought that was "ladder loading", but i may be misusing the term.

my understanding of the proper sizing set-up is, bring the ram up, screw down the sizing die til it touches, and add a quarter turn further.

that got me the extraction problems. adding a further quarter turn got rid of that problem. my concern is that somehow it's caused my groups to open up.

if so, bit of problem since extraction is an issue without the added quarter turn.
 
Ha Ha! That's certainly one way to look at it :) but generally, 'ladder testing' refers to shooting the incremented loads (as you've described them) but one at a time in increasing powder charges, not all three of the same charge for a group. What you're shooting is just group testing of different charge weights. This works for a lot of guys too. Go here and do a little reading: http://www.mysticprecision.com/wp/1158/load-tuning-to-maximize-lr-accuracy/ Jerry has put a bit of a different spin on the 'as prescribed' version of ladder testing but it works very well. Start here.

I think if your original attempt at setting up your dies "got you the extraction problem", you probably weren't quite right yet. If that got you any problem, it would have shown up as you tried to chamber the cartridge, not as you tried to extract it. An extraction issue still points to excessive pressure. For the sake of your face & your rifle, please watch this. If it seems now that there is no problem chambering, you're fine. You'll read reams of arguements about full length resizing versus partial versus neck sizing and really only the most discerning shooters can show you the hard benefits of neck-only sizing in anything but tighter toleranced custom or semi-custom rifles. No disrespect but I have a feeling you're not there yet. You certainly shouldn't see the kind of difference you're describing from a quarter turn of your sizing die. We have to investigate other things first.

Please answer the following:
What rifle are you shooting?
What cartridge are you shooting?
What powder are you using?
Where are you seating your bullets in relation to the lands? Do you know? Are you simply going by what the manual tells you?
What manual are you referencing?
What bullet are you using? I'm concerned that you may have these suckers jammed into your rifling....

Hate to sound like a jerk but I think once we get past a few more than likely simple loading issues, the biggest issue will probably be the shooter or the setup. Don't worry about your pride, mate. Nobody's gonna judge you if you're honest and you'll get far more help here if you are. Lots of good knowledge on this board to help you out.

Rooster
 
358Rooster said:
Please answer the following:
What rifle are you shooting?
What cartridge are you shooting?
What powder are you using?
Where are you seating your bullets in relation to the lands?
Do you know? Are you simply going by what the manual tells you?
What manual are you referencing?
What bullet are you using? I'm concerned that you may have these suckers jammed into your rifling....

Hate to sound like a jerk but I think once we get past a few more than likely simple loading issues, the biggest issue will probably be the shooter or the setup. Don't worry about your pride, mate. Nobody's gonna judge you if you're honest and you'll get far more help here if you are. Lots of good knowledge on this board to help you out.

Rooster
Click to expand...

savage 111 donor action, 26" Broughton heavy barrel, mdt lss chassis, harris bipod, swfa ss 10x scope
300wm, remington 1f brass, cleaned, measured, FL sized, federal magnum match primers, hornady HPBT match 225's
69 to 71 grains IMR 7828
not sure where i'm at with the lands.
i blued a loaded cartridge and chambered it, with no marks left on bullet after extraction, so it must not be jamming into them.
there were a few cartridges that were difficult to chamber also - not just an extraction problem, hense my suspicion about under sizing.

appreciate the candor folks. i'm admittedly inexperienced in both reloading and long range shooting.
no pride issues here. say on, gentlemen...
 
Last edited:
Alright, thanks Truenorth. Now we have something to work from. When is the next time you'll be doing any loading or shooting?

Before your next loading session:
- take a number of your empty resized brass & run them through your chamber - use the ones that chamber flawlessly and load them according to your plan. If any don't cycle through cleanly, assess the problem & fix it (trim it if it measures too long from base to case mouth, size it more - with enough lube - if it measures okay but will still not chamber nicely [shoulder location too far forward]).

Before your next shooting session:
- Check to make sure your barrel is tight (you never know....)
- Check how your rifle seats in the chassis. Is there anything obviously impeding the action from sitting down solidly or loose crap or lumps 'n' bumps that make the action rock a bit? If so, you will need to do a bit of hand work. **Get some experienced first-hand help here.
- If things seem okay from the above observations, tighten the action down into the chassis. Check the chassis manual for action screw torque or ask for help from guys who have experience with Savage actions, as there seems to be some voodoo surrounding torquing sequence & values that I can't claim to know (you may even get lucky with a search on this site).
- Check to make sure you have adequate clearance between the barrel & chassis all the way back to the action
- Check the scope mounting hardware. Start with the mount itself - with the scope off, are there any loose/stripped/broken screws? Rectify any issues. Next, go through your rings - are they fastened to the mount squarely & tightly? Are the rings tight on the scope (no loose/stripped/broken screws)?
- Does your bolt cycle through the action as it should, now that you have it torqued into the stock? Is there anything interfering?

Now, providing all the tests above pan out, take the cartridges that have been proven through your chamber (from pre-loading exercise above) to the range and conduct your tests however you choose. You may want to do a little dry fire practice before actually stuffing a loaded round into the rifle just to warm up a bit. Pay close attention to what your reticle does before, during, and after your full firing sequence - this can tell you more than you might think.

Nothing seems out of the ordinary by your description of the ammunition you're loading. You're trimmed correctly and you've deburred? You're not trying to crimp or anything silly like that, are you? If you're going to get into this long range handloading game, you really should consider a few tools such as comparator gauges to measure cartridge headspace & bullet seating. It'll make things easier & more certain. You may also want to consider bedding the action in the stock. I'm sure you've been told that it's not necessary with the MDT (and maybe it isn't) but it rarely hurts to do so if it's done right.

Go through these exercises & report back.
Rooster
 
I know what u mean an I used to call it a Ladder test too, but to the Pros it is not a ladder test.

What ya doin is fine IMO, an that's how I do it to get a load worked up..... works for me

What you might find though is the Barrel doesn't like being super clean! it may like a bit of fouling... maybe just let it go for a while then patch it clean, put a few through it then try your selected loads for accuracy!?

Cheers
WL
 
hi guys. i had a fellow gunnutter invite me out for an analysis of loads, rifle, observation my shooting technique, etc. at the range.
not sure how he feels about me shining the forum spot light on his generous gift of time and advice, so i'll leave his identity in the shadows,
[but thanks dude, you rock!].

so, range report:
- firstly, bore was not cleaned [as per the advice of several postings on this thread].
sizing die adjustment was left untouched since previous shoot. all brass sized at this setting, and then run through rifle to check for chambering/extration issues, with one cartridge tight upon extraction - removed from batch.
- my scope's paralax isn't calibrated to it's indicated distances. 100 yard setting was more like 300 on the scope's dial. i should have caught that, but i still have some finer points to learn/perfect, like "the paralax nod".
- run out and seating depth were checked with gauges. some rounds were showing more than tolerances allow for, and as predicted by my "adviser" there was alot of vertical stringing throughout the different groups of powder charge weights.
- lower temps this time out [around 20 degreees F less?] so that'll give some POI changes with a temp sensitive powder like 7828.
- definitely an accuracy node at 69.5 grains, ...a 5 round group in that weight shows promise, ...minus a flyer [me? run out issues?] four out of the 5 rounds grouped @ under 5/8ths, (i'll take that - sub .4 MOA ain't bad for a newbie ;-)

anyway, thanks for all the advice and input guys. much apppreciated. still not 100% sure what happened between the two previous shoots to open up groups, but i'm happy that some of the [seeming] mysteries of accuracy are being answered. all in all, a good morning out !
 
Last edited:
After cleaning my rifle the first 6 shots do not group well but after that things are good till I get around the 30 shot range then the groups start to spread this might explain your open group
 
sunray said:
Ladder testing doesn't tell you much about accuracy. Only tells you where a particular load hits. However, you need to provide more info. For example, what's the load?
Chambering issues, will be one thing. Ejection issues(that will have nothing to do with the load), another. Like 358Rooster says, extraction and ejection are very different things.
Did you prepare the cases correctly? As in, check case lengths, trim, chamfer and deburr as required and FL resize? All new brass requires that. Is it even new brass?
Click to expand...


so much fail here....

ladder testing will tell you if your load is in an accurate "node" or not. rifle barrels not only vibrate but constrict (optimal barrel time theory) and therefore when you get a load which doesn't change it's vertical spread over a couple tenths of a grain, you're in a node. ladder testing will show you that if you are careful - chrono testing will show you that even if you're a moron
 
I cut the neck of a sized case vertically and insert a flat base bullet upside down into the the casing. Then I chamber it around ten times and measure the length each time. 9 times out of ten you should get an accurate measurement if your distance to you lands. Then you need the proper bullet comparator to measure the ogive on your live rounds.

That's how I do it anyway, but I'm sure there's likely a lot better way than that.
 
I've read of lots of guys doing the flat based bullet backwards thing to find their lands - think about this for a second; where on that radius (that I've seen on every flat based bullet) are you contacting the rifling? How accurate can this be, especially considering that you don't know at what point along the bullet's ogive that the comparator you proposed to use will contact? But if you have a comparator, turning a flat based bullet around to measure for rifling location is a useless exercise. In my opinion, using the backwards FB bullet method is less effective than the smoked bullet routine.

For what it's actually worth, the value that one will derive from trying to find your rifling is merely a reference point. None of the common tools I see on the market are capable of telling you where the ogive/shank junction of the bullet actually contacts. What you do get is a reference value from which to work, finding the place that a particular bullet likes to be to shoot well.

Aren't I a damn ray of sunshine?:rolleyes:
Rooster
 
358Rooster said:
I've read of lots of guys doing the flat based bullet backwards thing to find their lands - think about this for a second; where on that radius (that I've seen on every flat based bullet) are you contacting the rifling? How accurate can this be, especially considering that you don't know at what point along the bullet's ogive that the comparator you proposed to use will contact? But if you have a comparator, turning a flat based bullet around to measure for rifling location is a useless exercise. In my opinion, using the backwards FB bullet method is less effective than the smoked bullet routine.

For what it's actually worth, the value that one will derive from trying to find your rifling is merely a reference point. None of the common tools I see on the market are capable of telling you where the ogive/shank junction of the bullet actually contacts. What you do get is a reference value from which to work, finding the place that a particular bullet likes to be to shoot well.

Aren't I a damn ray of sunshine?:rolleyes:
Rooster
Click to expand...

Way to shine some sunshine on this ;)

I was just about to post up the same thing... the fb method is very flawed. Depending on the shape of the bullet, you could be off by a fair bit or off by a lot, but there is absolutely nothing that will reference the flat base length to a comparator, nothing at all. As you said, comparators themselves are only a reference, this is why we must measure every shape of bullet to get any kind of decent result. The ctbo measurement for my vmax bullets is way longer than the cbto for my Berger VLD, when both are touching the lands.

What would be nice is a barrel cut off comparator cut with the same reamer as your throat/chamber. That would be super handy, and it would probably give at least much closer values for each type of bullet to each other. But still not the same no doubt since they would each touch a different spot on the lands, thus giving a slightly different measurement.

I've started seating everything into the lands though at least to start. The idea being that if you're into the lands, your in. How much effect there will be from 10 thou vs 5 thou, I think, is going to be much less than the effect of having one round hit the lands one two thou into them and one two oh m thou off them. Consistency would appear to be increased this way.... same as it would loading at least, say, ten or more off, but I found better accuracy into than off the lands.
 
I measure the base of the bullet to check the diameter and machine a bit off the end so it's a little more precise. This info is great! Like I said, my method likely isn't the best.
 
Last edited:
I've (in the past) gone so far as to machine a cylinder with a bore of .0001" smaller than nominal bullet diameter to get a more accurate reading on bullet seating depth. This is when I first noticed that Nosler bullets are, on average, .0005" smaller than most other makes. In reality, it makes no difference at what point on the bullet you take the measurement, as long as it's the same place each time.

You talk about using a representative throat (barrel cut off comparator) as being the most accurate and yes, I agree that it probably would be but how accurate do you actually need to be? I've always wondered about guys like Litz talking about testing seating depths with as little as .002" increments - given the malleability of bullet materials, this has to be awfully tough to be 100% sure about consistency. Mind you, there are far better methods to do this than the ol' cut neck or modified case methods.

You know, it's funny, the older I get and the more my leisure time gets swallowed up by responsibility, the less I tend to care about the minutia. I'm very much like you, krprice84; I jam VLD's .010 to .015 (-ish.....and stay there) and all others get the .010 jump treatment to start with. I may or may not mess with them after that. Usually, accuracy is good enough to easily stay within MOA to beyond 1200 yards. I don't shoot for record and I don't play the BR game. Maybe I've just gotten lazy and cantankerous....

I think a lot of us get caught up in sh*t to the 'Nth' degree and simply miss out instead on valuable shoot time experience.
Rooster
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom