One rifle, one calibre, one cartride.
- Thread starter YukonBrett
- Start date
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
And anyone saying the above statement has some backing up with facts to do if they want to maintain credibility.45-70 has one of the most dynamic load ranges from fast and light to heavy and slow of any round in existence. Massive bullet selection owing to a cult-like following in the USA. The Marlin 1895 is a versatile package that can take the highest pressure .45-70 loads.
The only weakness I can think of is that lever gun extraction is not as positive as a CRF bolt. Nevertheless, they have proven adequately reliable for me and there's a reason it's what most alaskan guides have carried consistently over time.
Being a BPCR shooter I can attest to the fact that you can place shots accurately with a 45-70. But a specialized 45-70 weighing 12 lbs with a 32" barrel makes a dreadful hunting rifle. And while you can make impressive strings of hits on the 500m rams on a BPCR range all you need to do is watch a Hunter Rifle match to see what happens when you haven't got a spotter. While I can run a rail of rams as often as not, in a hunter match without the benefit of a spotter or sighting shots your ratio of hits to shots decreases immensely. Hint - bring a LOT of ammo to a hunter match. And keep in mind that these are shot at known distances from nicely braced prone (usually) positions.
Then, as Boomer points out, there is the issue of trajectory. No matter how you slice it, the 45-70 isn't all that hot. The Barnes factory VOR-TX load of a 300gr bullet at 1900 FPS and zeroed at 100 yards drops almost a foot by 250 yards and almost 2 feet by 350, which is not an unreasonable range to expect in the Rockies or out on the prairie. Even if you manage to drive a 400gr bullet at 2000FPS you can still expect 14" of drop at 350 from a 100 yard zero. Add in the fact that you may not have a chance to dig out your LRF nor the ability to determine the difference between 285 yards and 350 yards with the naked eye and you have a recipe for a misplaced shot. Then look at the drift. The same 400gr bullet at 2000FPS will drift over 2 feet in a 10MPH wind at 350 yards. 10 MPH isn't much wind in the mountains or on the prairies. Compound the felony with a rifle that (in the case of the Marlin) hasn't got a great trigger nor is it going to be a 1 MOA rifle and you quickly run out of capability as the range extends.
Don't get me wrong, I love the 45-70. I thoroughly enjoy carrying my 1885 around due to it's short length and trim lines. But it would be nearly the bottom of my list if I were venturing out into the mountains. I'm sure that I could work up a load with a pointed high BC bullet like a 500gr TSX, turn up the horsepower and add a scope but the result would be less than pleasing. For the ferocious amount of recoil it would generate there is no convincing reason not to use any one of two or three dozen more appropriate platforms.
Again, we're talking about one do it all rifle and cartridge for all of North America. Unfortunately, this one ain't it.
Well the whole of your post is a much better and thought-out answer - thanks for that. That being said, there are not a lot of other calibers out there that are good for moose, elk, grizzly and polar bear that are also portable and can be down-loaded for small deer while still performing adequately. I thank my lucky stars we aren't in a country where you need to justify every firearm and calibre on a limited license and I can have a .45-70 sitting in my rack right next to my .300 H&H and nobody can legally call their ownership into question (yet).
That bullet from the 50-90 must have bounced off Quanah Parker since he lived well into the 20th century.
IMO this question is always over thought, there will always be some compromise, it might be range, or handling, an increase in recoil, or the rifle might not fit in a scabbard, or even aesthetics. Legalities also work against a "do it all" rifle and cartridge, the legal minimums on bison which vary by jurisdiction, some parts of Ontario with the under 270 rule, Indiana has a maximum case length rule that basically limits hunters to pistol cartridges or X39 based wildcats.
And again IMO, a rifle is a secondary piece of equipment (not matter how fun to debate/argue about). I'd rather hunt exclusively with a $170 mosin nagant and a good binocular than with any rifle named in this thread in combo with a crappy binocular.
IMO this question is always over thought, there will always be some compromise, it might be range, or handling, an increase in recoil, or the rifle might not fit in a scabbard, or even aesthetics. Legalities also work against a "do it all" rifle and cartridge, the legal minimums on bison which vary by jurisdiction, some parts of Ontario with the under 270 rule, Indiana has a maximum case length rule that basically limits hunters to pistol cartridges or X39 based wildcats.
And again IMO, a rifle is a secondary piece of equipment (not matter how fun to debate/argue about). I'd rather hunt exclusively with a $170 mosin nagant and a good binocular than with any rifle named in this thread in combo with a crappy binocular.
If there was any possibility of a 250 yard or 350 yard shot, why on earth would you be sighting at 100 yards? Maximizing the MPBR would result in a much more usable, yardage friendly range...
My 325 FTX over H4198 loads are moving at 2350 fps and are not particularly hot but are tremendously flatter...
Having said this... I am not vying for the .45/70 in answer to the OP's question... for that I am sticking with the .350 RM in a short action M77...
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
The perks of sitting in front of a computer rather than scratching things out on a tablet. It makes expounding so much easier.
I'm with you on that. Sounds like our gun racks are a bit similar.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Not bounced off perhaps, because the wound was serious, toppling the rider from his horse, 5.3 seconds after the paper patched bullet left the muzzle, and breaking his arm. Billy Dixon claimed he aimed at the group of riders, not a single man, and believed he had killed the fellow who fell from his horse. Whether the wound was lethal or not, in addition to Quana Parker's arm, it broke the attack on Adobe Walls; it was the considered opinion of the guys in charge was that there was bad medicine. Quana Parker in later life gave the world the written Commanche language
I do agree that a good pair of binoculars is the most important piece of equipment to the hunter in open country, next to his rifle.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
That depends with how high a MRT you're willing to tolerate. Given the muzzle velocity of a hot loaded .45-70 with a 400 gr bullet, a 150 yard zero provides a maximum ordinate of 3" or so, which is manageable, but a 300 yard zero increases this to 6" or more, making a quick shot at a 100 yard target a bit of a problem.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Except the .308 doesn't meet the legal minimum for bison in the Yukon, but for almost anything else it'll work
Mike you can make the 308 working for bison ask Ted ...
My local CT always has .30-30, .308, .30-06, .300 Savage and .300 Win Mag. They have never had .338 on the shelf, and neither have most of the CT's within an hour's drive in Ontario. Here in the east, the .30 cals seem to be the CT rule of thumb.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Ah, I thought the .30/06 180 was named the minimum in the legislation, but if we're simply talking about muzzle velocity and energy, I can get 210s up to 2650 fps in my .308 target rifle for about 3276 foot pounds, not that I think foot pounds of energy alone equate to good terminal performance on game, and that target rifle doesn't have a 20" barrel.
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Every MPBR still requires "Kentucky Windage" (elevation in this case)... personally I always use a KZ of 6" instead of the standard 10"... in my mind a radius of 3" + KW should get you pretty close to center... more margin for error is a good thing... because there will always be Murphy...
The whole point of calculating MPBR is so that there is only one aim point with no Kentucky Windage. Once you start holding over, you are no longer with in your MPBR. With a kill zone of 10" the MPBR would be calculated using a single aim point where the bullet never rises more than 5" above or or falls 5" below that single aim point. Using a 6" kill zone, The MPBR of a 45/70 would be pretty short.....under 200 yards with many loads.
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BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
I think that the argument that hoyt is making is that a 10" KZ is pretty liberal (small "l"...small "l"!!!). I would tend to agree with that sentiment. 8" is, in my experience, a more commonly accepted yardstick but 6" gives you a conservative, but probably safe, KZ.
