Now i will start with please dont rip my head off here. I have no experience with reloading and i just wanted to ask people who do know. I got two type 38 arisakas in a trade. Theyre chambered for 6.5 rounds but the carbine is really really shot out. I put a digital caliper down the barrell and its worn almost right on 7mm my question is if i were to neck the cases to take 7mm rounds would it be safe to fire them? Because 6.5 rounds are like throwing a hotdog in an airplane hanger. Thanks in advance
shot out 6.5 jap using 7mm bullets.
- Thread starter 7.62xfun
- Start date
Digital calipers work quite well but I would slug the barrel and check the bore measurement from that slug.
Take a 00 Buck lead pellet and shape it slightly oval so it's closer to your muzzle bore size. Drive the slug down the bore with 6" long 1/4" wooden dowels stacked end-on-end. That way you're less likely to flex and break the dowel.
Put some cotton wool or soft fabric in the chamber and receiver to catch the slug without distorting it.
Now measure the lands and grooves and see what you've got...
Take a 00 Buck lead pellet and shape it slightly oval so it's closer to your muzzle bore size. Drive the slug down the bore with 6" long 1/4" wooden dowels stacked end-on-end. That way you're less likely to flex and break the dowel.
Put some cotton wool or soft fabric in the chamber and receiver to catch the slug without distorting it.
Now measure the lands and grooves and see what you've got...
7mm, even 270 bullets will be a non-starter. The limitation here is the chamber neck diameter - with a bullet oversized more than about 5 thou, you'll risk insufficient clearance so that if the round will even chamber, you risk sky-high pressures.
Hornady does or used to produce a 0.268" bullet for the Carcano, but if the barrel's "shot-out", they won't shoot well even if they "fit".
So much potential for harm here...........
Hornady does or used to produce a 0.268" bullet for the Carcano, but if the barrel's "shot-out", they won't shoot well even if they "fit".
So much potential for harm here...........
Muskyhunter1
CGN Regular
- Location
- Near the tree with the crooked limb.
Like the boys say slug that barrel. I load for a type 38 and the Arisaka does not like boat tail bullets as they seem to keyhole. They have a metford type rifling so i dont know if that has something to do with it. If you need any advice on the 6.5 jap loading you know where to find us. Do stay away from larger bullets. Slug it and go from there.
Google PO Ackley's experiments with the M38 Arisaka.
He rechambered the rifle to 30-06. The key here is he only rechambered the existing 6.5 diameter barrel. Then, he loaded up several cartridges with 150 grain bullets over different loads of 2400.
It wasn't until he had a full case of 2400 that he really had an issue. A now deceased friend of mine and myself, decided this would be a fun experiment to copy.
We had the same result PO Ackley did. Before you get snively you have to realize that Arisakas were considered to be the worst of all the milsurps. Even more hated than Carcanos. The rifles we were playing with cost us about ten cents a pound and were very rough but all five of them had very decent bores.
We wanted to blow one up and proceeded to try to do so.
we were only going to blow up one of them though. At the price we paid for them, that was about as cheap a training rifle we would ever get our hands on.
We loaded five cases with ever increasing loads of 2400 under 150gr 30 cal FMJ bullets and also had a couple of loaded surplus rounds to try.
The first rounds we loaded into the rifle were the surplus rounds.
I should also mention, the rifle was tied very securely to a tire and rim that came off a logging truck and the trigger was pulled via a 50 foot cord. If you've ever seen a receiver KABOOM you would know that margin of safety was minimal.
Anyway, both of the surplus rounds were fired without an issue, other than the bolt was difficult to lift and the primers were completely missing. Extraction was surprisingly easy but that massive claw extractor is very positive.
The first two loads of 2400 were similar to the surplus rounds.
The next two were a bit different. Extraction became difficult and brass started flowing. Both were spit from the neck to mid body. The gas escape ports did their jobs extremely well.
The fifth case was filled with as much 2400 as we could compress under the 150 gr FMJ.
This last shot did the trick. It made the rifle unusable. It didn't blow it up though. In fact there really wasn't any damage done to any of the metal components.
There was an impressive amount of flame. The whole tire/rim spun around and moved back. The stock was split into splinters al around the receiver and would have done some real damage to a shooter if they were holding onto it.
The mag well was expanded but easily fixable and the floorplate had sprung open. You could see the brass had flowed out and around the bolt. If you've ever seen the breeching system of the Arisaka, you would understand how spectacular the forces within that chamber must have been. The bolt head is completely enclosed by the barrel as well as the receiver.
When we went to open the bolt, not a chance. The bolt handles on Arisakas are definitely not as strong as their peers. We broke it off trying to pound it open with a 3 foot oak 2x4. The only way we could get the bolt open was to take the barrel out of the receiver. Then, it was obvious what happened. The brass case was actually more of a brass blob. The heat generated had caused the brass to flow into every nook and cranny in the receiver, including into the gas ports and that caused all of the damage to the stock.
The barrel was not bulged and could have been screwed back into the receiver and used again. The bolt and lugs were fine and we proved it by magnafluxing. The receiver was fine as well, after we scraped all of the brass out of the lug recess areas.
Now, here is the biggy. That receiver is still going strong. It is somewhere in Saskatchewan as far as I know and still chambered for the 257 Roberts that it was when my bud fitted a new barrel to it. He figured that if any receiver could stand up to that much abuse he just had to have it built up on his favorite cartridge.
Those rifles were worth their weight in gold for us. We practiced whatever gunsmithing techniques we could glean from library books and commercial magazines at the time. Remember, the internet wasn't even a wet dream back in those days.
There are a lot of junkers out there. If you are so inclined to learn on them, fly right at it. No, you won't get them for under a buck apiece but often they will be free because someone just wants to get rid of them.
OP, I wouldn't waste the time or the bullets on either of those rifles. But if you just want to play, give it a try. One thing though, the chamber will not accept a 7mm bullet. The Japanese were meticulous about dimensional tolerances and I sincerely doubt that without reaming out the neck you will have any luck.
Unless you have the tools to do that work, you will have to pay to have it done. Spend the money on ammo for rifles that will appreciate it and either turn your Arisakas into wall hangers or sell them for parts rifles.
He rechambered the rifle to 30-06. The key here is he only rechambered the existing 6.5 diameter barrel. Then, he loaded up several cartridges with 150 grain bullets over different loads of 2400.
It wasn't until he had a full case of 2400 that he really had an issue. A now deceased friend of mine and myself, decided this would be a fun experiment to copy.
We had the same result PO Ackley did. Before you get snively you have to realize that Arisakas were considered to be the worst of all the milsurps. Even more hated than Carcanos. The rifles we were playing with cost us about ten cents a pound and were very rough but all five of them had very decent bores.
We wanted to blow one up and proceeded to try to do so.
we were only going to blow up one of them though. At the price we paid for them, that was about as cheap a training rifle we would ever get our hands on.
We loaded five cases with ever increasing loads of 2400 under 150gr 30 cal FMJ bullets and also had a couple of loaded surplus rounds to try.
The first rounds we loaded into the rifle were the surplus rounds.
I should also mention, the rifle was tied very securely to a tire and rim that came off a logging truck and the trigger was pulled via a 50 foot cord. If you've ever seen a receiver KABOOM you would know that margin of safety was minimal.
Anyway, both of the surplus rounds were fired without an issue, other than the bolt was difficult to lift and the primers were completely missing. Extraction was surprisingly easy but that massive claw extractor is very positive.
The first two loads of 2400 were similar to the surplus rounds.
The next two were a bit different. Extraction became difficult and brass started flowing. Both were spit from the neck to mid body. The gas escape ports did their jobs extremely well.
The fifth case was filled with as much 2400 as we could compress under the 150 gr FMJ.
This last shot did the trick. It made the rifle unusable. It didn't blow it up though. In fact there really wasn't any damage done to any of the metal components.
There was an impressive amount of flame. The whole tire/rim spun around and moved back. The stock was split into splinters al around the receiver and would have done some real damage to a shooter if they were holding onto it.
The mag well was expanded but easily fixable and the floorplate had sprung open. You could see the brass had flowed out and around the bolt. If you've ever seen the breeching system of the Arisaka, you would understand how spectacular the forces within that chamber must have been. The bolt head is completely enclosed by the barrel as well as the receiver.
When we went to open the bolt, not a chance. The bolt handles on Arisakas are definitely not as strong as their peers. We broke it off trying to pound it open with a 3 foot oak 2x4. The only way we could get the bolt open was to take the barrel out of the receiver. Then, it was obvious what happened. The brass case was actually more of a brass blob. The heat generated had caused the brass to flow into every nook and cranny in the receiver, including into the gas ports and that caused all of the damage to the stock.
The barrel was not bulged and could have been screwed back into the receiver and used again. The bolt and lugs were fine and we proved it by magnafluxing. The receiver was fine as well, after we scraped all of the brass out of the lug recess areas.
Now, here is the biggy. That receiver is still going strong. It is somewhere in Saskatchewan as far as I know and still chambered for the 257 Roberts that it was when my bud fitted a new barrel to it. He figured that if any receiver could stand up to that much abuse he just had to have it built up on his favorite cartridge.
Those rifles were worth their weight in gold for us. We practiced whatever gunsmithing techniques we could glean from library books and commercial magazines at the time. Remember, the internet wasn't even a wet dream back in those days.
There are a lot of junkers out there. If you are so inclined to learn on them, fly right at it. No, you won't get them for under a buck apiece but often they will be free because someone just wants to get rid of them.
OP, I wouldn't waste the time or the bullets on either of those rifles. But if you just want to play, give it a try. One thing though, the chamber will not accept a 7mm bullet. The Japanese were meticulous about dimensional tolerances and I sincerely doubt that without reaming out the neck you will have any luck.
Unless you have the tools to do that work, you will have to pay to have it done. Spend the money on ammo for rifles that will appreciate it and either turn your Arisakas into wall hangers or sell them for parts rifles.
Great story - thanks for that!
An old issue of the American Rifleman had an article on rechambering a 6.5mm Arisaka to .30-06.
The 6.5mm barrel acted as a squeeze bore and pictures of the elongated bullets were shown in the article.
The previously 7.62mm bullets were now 6,5mm in diameter.
The 6.5mm barrel acted as a squeeze bore and pictures of the elongated bullets were shown in the article.
The previously 7.62mm bullets were now 6,5mm in diameter.
IIRC those pics were from Ackley's shop.
Of course the bullets were swaged down. But just think of the internal forces created to do so.
Both rifles are complete and in working order, so im not selling them as parts. One has its mum mostly worn off but visible thisnis the carbine and its shot out. The full length has a intact but punched mum. Seeing as ive yet to find an arisaka for under 400 dollars theyre not exactly growing on trees. The ammo i was using was norma factory loads. But the carbine has become near smooth bore and i enjoy shooting my rifles now and again, and generally i like a bit more then a shotgun pattren from a rifle lol
- Location
- Golden Lake
I had a similar problem with a Norwegian Krag in 6.5x55. I tried soft cast lead bullets that would "bumo up" and take what rifling was left but the accuracy was still poor.
They must be hard come by in Cape Breton. I picked up three at the Chiliwac BC show this spring for less than 300 each and they are all in VG or better condition.
They sat on the fellow's table for two days and he came over and asked me if I wanted all three of them for $750. Of course I jumped on them. Two of them had bayonets with frogs as well.
You may do as you wish with them but they certainly aren't the jewels you think they are. Arisakas are only rare when you're looking for a decent one. The condition of your rifles, as you describe them, is about what you run across looking for decent ones.
If you want to shoot them and have the bullets go to the general point of aim try paper patched cast lead.
Seems im out of luck for rounds ahd as far as the arisakas go, made a thread on here first and asked about pricing, i was told not to expect anything less then 400 for complete examples by multiple people, seems you just got really lucky. Theyres no second shipment coming from japan as the IJA quit making them im 1945.not taking wartime propaganda to heart 69 years later helps to see they are well built strong rifles.
unless you are really underestimating the condition of your rifles, your price is high. Not saying you won't get it in your area but they appear in this neck of the woods in the similar condition you mentioned and anything over $300 for a fair to good beater with shot out bore is about all they will bring.
Then again, like I said, depending on where you are has a lot to do with prices as well.
As far as no second shipment, well there have been dozens of such shipments of such rifles. Thailand and the surrounding nations as well as China still have warehouses full of them in different calibers and every condition from junk to almost pristine.
Getting lucky at a Historical Arms Collectors Show, especially a two day show with several thousand people going through it, just doesn't happen. The stuff like Kropatscheks get left because they are so obscure and no one understands their historical significance but Arisakas, especially with bayos and frogs, I don't think so. They just aren't that popular, like the Carcanos/South American Mausers they are amongst the Rodney Dangerfields of milsurps. If you want to make some investments in milsurps, the Carcanos, South American Mausers, Arisakas in very good or better condition are the way to go. Especially for younger collectors. They are still relatively cheap and they haven't made any spectacular movies using such firearms, like they have with Mausers/Springfields/Garands/Lee Enfields which are the darlings of the collector community right now. They are getting very expensive though and people will change to something else. Right now, they play with the cheap SKS and Mosin Nagants. Looking on the Tradex site all matching VG-EXC M96 Swedes are bringing $600. Same goes for refurbed Yugos with all the Nazi stamps scrubbed and replaced with Yugoslavian stamps.
Their time is coming though. Same goes for the Carcanos. The stigma is coming off of them as people become more educated as to how good these rifles are and how steeped in history they are.
I would love to get my hands on one of the Mukden Arsenal produced Arisakas in 8x57, I have only seen about a dozen that I remember and they were in terrible condition. Almost looking like they went through the drill purpose part of their existence. Decent bores but the finish was all gone and they were beat to hell.
I even have one of the Arisakas that the US modified to 30-06, It has a .313 bore diameter and loves .312 bullets loaded into the 30-06 cases. Accuracy is atrocious with .308 diameter bullets. More of a spray on and around the target at 100 yds. No wonder the Koreans that were issued them hated them. There were also thousands of Type 38 and 99 Arisakas left behind in Korea. Both the North and South Koreans used them to arm non essential combat troops.
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Muskyhunter1
CGN Regular
- Location
- Near the tree with the crooked limb.
Great thread guys Very interesting. The 6.5 is a decent round and fun to shoot. I really enjoy shooting mine and she does well with cast too. Good luck with your experiments but be careful.
