One rifle, one calibre, one cartride.

[Boomer]

I've been often told it's the biggest of the medium guns...lol It does seem to have trouble finding a slot in many people's definitions of big bores vs well, that's another ball of wax.

To my way of thinking big starts with .458" and goes up from there. Everything between .308" and .458" is a medium, and everything from .308" down is a small bore. That keeps things simple, if such designations actually matter.

 

[sheephunter]

To my way of thinking big starts with .458" and goes up from there. Everything between .308" and .458" is a medium, and everything from .308" down is a small bore. That keeps things simple, if such designations actually matter.

I've never talked to anyone that considered a 416 a medium bore. .375-.40 cal seems to be the cutoff in most people's minds but as you say, it is somewhat of a meaningless designation.

 

[Dogleg]

How come you didn't settle on something in between - i.e. .416" of one sort or another?

I tried that and still have my .416 Rigby. Shot buffalo and elephant with it, but I've never been able to see what it did better than a .375 in exchange for double the recoil. When I took the next step up to the .458 I could see the difference and that was using both calibers on a cull and switching every day. My experiment with 350 grain TSXs at 2650 in the .458 has got me thinking that I may not even need a .375 much, never mind a .416.

 

[Dogleg]

I've been often told it's the biggest of the medium guns...lol It does seem to have trouble finding a slot in many people's definitions of big bores vs well, that's another ball of wax.

That's why its a fun question. By diameter it should be a medium, but its track record is solid for playing with the .40 ups. Its close to the only one that the exception is make for. To me its a big medium.

 

[Dogleg]

Taylor considered the .416 a medium, or was that a heavy medium? There is no solid rule.

In a general sort of way I consider 8mm and down light, under 10mm medium and over 10mm heavy but that's velocity sensitive too.

 

[c-fbmi]

If I may jump into this conversation.......It is my opinion that regular calibers go up to and include the 338s...........Mediums start at 35s and go up to and include all calibers under 458............Biggies start at 458 and go up and do NOT include the old Winchester and lever era cartridges. Of course this is all subjective, but the 375 H&H is truly a medium as is the 416 Rigby.........Quite possibly the 340 Wby, 338 RUM, 338-378 and the Lapua could be classed as mediums, but the 338WM nor the 338 Fed etc, make the grade in my opinion.

Make no mistake about it though the 375 H&H is a medium bore rifle, it just happens to be the cut off for dangerous game in most African countries, but this does NOT make it a heavy, just a highly effective medium as is the Rigby, Taylor and Rem in the 416 class.

 

[hoytcanon]

I am not sure that specifications of small/medium/large bores is particularly relevant to most shooters, rather is more subjective based on their application... not having plans to hunt Africa in the near future or take part in an Australian buffalo cull, MY Large bores are the 9.3's and .375 H&H... Douglas has these as the lower end of the medium bores. According to the general consensus here, I am a smallbore shooter since 95% of my shooting is done with 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm and .30 cals... I have never thought of myself as a smallbore shooter

 

[Boomer]

I've never talked to anyone that considered a 416 a medium bore. .375-.40 cal seems to be the cutoff in most people's minds but as you say, it is somewhat of a meaningless designation.

Sure you have, we've talked on here several times over the years. Rigby designed their .416 as a medium, but it seems to me that the Brits of the day were of the mind that it took an ounce of bullet weight to make a big bore.

 

[6MT]

This thread needs a poll!

 

[sheephunter]

Sure you have, we've talked on here several times over the years. Rigby designed their .416 as a medium, but it seems to me that the Brits of the day were of the mind that it took an ounce of bullet weight to make a big bore.

Wasn't saying you were wrong...I've just never heard it said but now I have a few times in this thread....interesting.

 

[9.3mauser]

Rigby designed their .416 as a medium, but it seems to me that the Brits of the day were of the mind that it took an ounce of bullet weight to make a big bore.

I don't think Rigby's ever considered the .416 a "medium", in fact they refer to it quite specifically in an early catalogue as a "large-bore magazine rifle", and that "sportsmen, who... prefer ( for heavy and dangerous game) a single barrel rifle with magazine, to a double barrel, will find it an equal weapon.

 

[bearkilr]

It's a pretty subjective topic, those that want to associate themselves more with dangerous game and the ivory hunters of years past will say that big bores don't start until the stove pipe guns, whereas it seems most North American and European hunters consider everything up to 257 or 270 small bore, 270 -375 medium bore and 375 and above big bore.
I haven't heard the 375 H&H referred to as a medium bore outside of the internet or Safari Press books.

 

[sniper58]

9.3x62 290 gr. or 375 H+H 270 gr.

I agree with the .375 H&H part of the post.
I don't have a 9.3x62 (yet) so no opinion there.

 

[Boomer]

I don't think Rigby's ever considered the .416 a "medium", in fact they refer to it quite specifically in an early catalogue as a "large-bore magazine rifle", and that "sportsmen, who... prefer ( for heavy and dangerous game) a single barrel rifle with magazine, to a double barrel, will find it an equal weapon.

I found this little gem on Wikipedia . . .

At the turn of the 20th Century, three major British rifle manufacturers, Jeffery, Westley-Richards and John Rigby & Co. designed cartridges which could operate in the Magnum Mauser action and could offer big bore nitro express ballistics and performance in a magazine rifle which was what the British called their bolt action rifles. The result was the .404 Jeffery, .425 Westley-Richards and the .416 Rigby. While these cartridges were considered to be the new medium bore cartridges during their day, their performance on game matched the performance of the big bore Nitro Express cartridges. The performance of these cartridges was due to the sectional density (greater than 7.6 millimetres (0.300 in)) and higher velocity (~700 m/s (2,300 ft/s)).

 

[BigUglyMan]

I tried that and still have my .416 Rigby. Shot buffalo and elephant with it, but I've never been able to see what it did better than a .375 in exchange for double the recoil. When I took the next step up to the .458 I could see the difference and that was using both calibers on a cull and switching every day. My experiment with 350 grain TSXs at 2650 in the .458 has got me thinking that I may not even need a .375 much, never mind a .416.

You found the recoil that much worse? I wonder if the 416 Rigby with 350gr TSX wouldn't do everything the Lott does but with better penetration and maybe even more speed

 

[c-fbmi]

John Taylor said of the 416 Rigby, (and I'm paraphrasing) It kills all out of proportion for a medium bore and truly acts like a big bore when used correctly on heavy game................

 

[Dogleg]

You found the recoil that much worse? I wonder if the 416 Rigby with 350gr TSX wouldn't do everything the Lott does but with better penetration and maybe even more speed

Depends how you load it I suppose, but it feels like double and works out close to double on a recoil calculator.(32 and 59 pounds) Both rifles were CZ 550s too. Hot loads heading toward Weatherby speeds are a quantum leap in recoil.

Funny thing, I've never experienced a wild amount of penetration with TSXs in the .416, not as good as the .375. With flat nosed Barnes solids I never managed to stop one with the .416, 458 and just one in .375. That one was put right on the root of the tail on a buffalo cow and we found it in its bottom lip.

My 350 grain TSX load in the 458 Win cruised along at 2650 fps and worked very well. I haven't done them as a .458 Lott yet but 2850 should be within reach.

 

[c-fbmi]

You found the recoil that much worse? I wonder if the 416 Rigby with 350gr TSX wouldn't do everything the Lott does but with better penetration and maybe even more speed

If you really want good penetration from the Rigby you must use 400 gn bullets at about 2600 fps for the Barnes TSX............

 

[hoytcanon]

If you really want good penetration from the Rigby you must use 400 gn bullets at about 2600 fps for the Barnes TSX............

Would using a 350 from the .416 be akin to starting a ".243 for moose" thread???

 

[9.3mauser]

I found this little gem on Wikipedia . . .

At the turn of the 20th Century, three major British rifle manufacturers, Jeffery, Westley-Richards and John Rigby & Co. designed cartridges which could operate in the Magnum Mauser action and could offer big bore nitro express ballistics and performance in a magazine rifle which was what the British called their bolt action rifles. The result was the .404 Jeffery, .425 Westley-Richards and the .416 Rigby. While these cartridges were considered to be the new medium bore cartridges during their day, their performance on game matched the performance of the big bore Nitro Express cartridges. The performance of these cartridges was due to the sectional density (greater than 7.6 millimetres (0.300 in)) and higher velocity (~700 m/s (2,300 ft/s)).

Anybody can write a Wikipedia article, even Sunray, so I would take anything found on there with more than a single grain of salt.