Too much recoil...

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Some folks have posted about rifles like the .338 WM or the .375 H&H having too much recoil to handle. Some people feel this way even though they have never tried rifles chambered for these types of cartridges. I stumbled on this article while I was checking some Ramshot load data and it is a good read.

"Taming a Dangerous Game Rifle"

http://blog.westernpowders.com/2014/06/taming-a-dangerous-game-rifle/

A short excerpt:
The continuing success of the .375 H&H rests on three legs. One, with modern “super” bullets, it will kill any animal on earth with one well- placed shot. Two, it is the most powerful cartridge an average hunter can easily master. There is no need for a muzzle brake or an excessively heavy rifle. Third, anywhere there is hunting, .375 H&H ammunition can be purchased across the counter most any hardware store, shooting emporium, or even drugstore.
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From my experience the big guns need to be shot properly!! Firs off when someone asked to take a shot out of one of my big guns i usually don't let them shoot it off a bench! Second your must hold and stand correctly to absorb and roll with the recoil!

I always offer a past recoil pad and unless your use to the recoil........don't free recoil shoot the gun ...hold it down when on the bench!!!! Had lots of guys shoot the 416 Rigby, 378 Weatherby with and without brake! And say "wow thats like a big push- what's the big deal with that"

If taught correctly how to shoot the big guns they are almost way more fun to shoot that the smaller stuff!
 
I let a co-worker shoot my 470 up North. First shot resulted in "Oh sh*t...forgot my ear defenders" (he's an English fellow so with the accent it was hilarious. Second barrel (now with ear defenders) was a simple, slightly drawn out "#####". But he didn't fall over, die or start crying like a 5 year old girl with a skinned knee. Probably wouldn't be his first choice for a new deer rifle, but he shortly thereafter took up hunting and is now fully "one of us". The 416 Rigby resulted in even less hilarity despite my giving it to a buddy who is about 5'6" and 175 lbs.

They're not your buddy's SKS, but any normally constituted man can learn to shoot them. And, since I have daughters, they can be taught to handle heavies too.
 
Told him . . . Don't do it!
Oh it will be okay.
Not in my estimation of this new, light framed 18 year old, to shoot a Lazeroni in the 338 range.
Bleed . . . the poor bugger had a solid 1" cut that must have gone near to the bone.
Comment from the gun owner . . . I'm in $hit now . . . the same thing happened to his mother!

There is little satisfaction seeing someone suffer under these circumstances.
 
over the years it goes bigger better more , bigger better more . Bigger stronger
but 130 years ago the swedes fingered it out it's easier to drive a pin through skin than a 2x4
there is a paticular diameter that punches a hole like a cannon but it recoils like a 22
section desnity

at at our age we all backed down from the big guns and we're all shooting 6.5 and everything is falling over
just the 300 win mag animals are still running
 
IMHO, a rifle that can only be fired off hand by the hunter is a niche rifle, suitable only for large game at close range. If you can't shoot the rifle prone, its too big for you to use as a general purpose rifle. If the rifle is a kicker, and you've mounted the scope so the ocular lens is located well behind the cocking piece, its simply a matter of time before you suffer a cut, the severity of which is proportional not only to the amount of recoil, but to the position of your eye brow with the ocular, which tends to change with the target angle. If the scope of your .270 or .30/06 touches you now and then, don't mount the scope on your .458 as far back. All that aside, what is necessary to master hard kicking rifles, is the desire to do so, provided you are healthy enough to survive contact sports, and to make the necessary changes to the rifle which ensures it won't cut or hurt you.

Edited to add . . .

Some years ago a fellow came to my attention who claimed to have all sorts of hunting experience and had shot all sorts of rifles, and he carried on to the point of bragging. So when I passed him my Ruger #1 in .416 Rigby, since he was an experienced shooter, I paid little attention to his stance or gun handling. Until that is, a moment before he fired I noticed that I could see daylight between the recoil pad and his shoulder. My yell to "WAIT!" was drowned out by the shot. He didn't drop the rifle, but he wanted to, and as I rescued it from his weakening grip, I noticed his eyes were damp (read filled with tears). He didn't ask for a second shot. Normally I don't take pleasure in other people's misery, but I'll occasionally make an exception for a braggart.
 
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Recoil is all about perception. When I shot my first centerfire (1894 30-30) I thought it was incredibly loud and violent. Now I try to keep bench sessions with a .458 and under 30 rounds and position shooting is fun. Besides gaining a few pounds in those decades, nothing has changed. The only difference is then everything was an assault on the senses, and now its just the expected result of pulling a trigger. My skin never got any thicker, but I can honestly say its easier to shoot my Lott now than the 30-30 back then.

Back when I thought a .300 kicked there was no use telling me that it wasn't too bad because I knew I could prove you wrong every time I shot mine. An old gunsmith (Anyone in Saskatoon could name him) used to promote the .375 H&H. He would say that it really wasn't bad at all. I knew that he was lieing, just didn't know why.

Time goes by, ammo goes down-range and perceptions change. I got a .375 and was pleasantly surprised that it was no harder to shoot than a .300. In some ways it was easier; less abrupt and it took quite a few more shots to burn myself.

The bigger guns that double and more the .375s recoil were a bit challenging. I had to adapt to the idea that I was now part of the system and had to rock and roll with the rifle. That took some adjusting since everything up to that point was just letting the rifle do whatever it wanted in recoil.

A big help for me is that the big boomers represent fun and anticipation. If I didn't have a bonifide use for them, I'd leave them on the rack.

Now where was I? Oh yeah recoils all in your head.
 
IMHO stick fit is also a huge factor in recoil management.
I have handled the same rifle in different stock lengths and can tell the difference in felt recoil.

Like with shotguns, an ill fitting stock can make take the fun and accuracy out of the shooting experience.
 
Boomer said:
IMHO, a rifle that can only be fired off hand by the hunter is a niche rifle, suitable only for large game at close range. If you can't shoot the rifle prone, its too big for you to use as a general purpose rifle.
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A LOT of people use poor prone technique, particularly for calibers with a good measure of recoil. When I go to the range and see people shooting prone, 80% or more of the time, their bodies are in-line with the bore, increasing the friction between the torso and the shooting mat (or ground) and ensuring an entire body length of inertia needs to be overcome by the recoil impulse. This means your shoulder muscles compress more than they should and the recoil will be more likely to hurt you.

This US ARMY training manual image illustrates the proper way to shoot prone.

militaryfiringpositionr.jpg


As can be seen, the upper body linear to the bore is only a fraction of the length of the whole body. This allows the upper torso to act like a spring. Less friction to overcome, less inertia is needed to be overcome by the recoil impulse. The shoulder and torso move back a small amount and then spring forward again as the rifle muzzle is brought back down onto target. The "felt" recoil is thereby much less.

For those scared of prone shooting larger than .270, try this method out - it works - and has been hammered into marksmanship training by the world's militates for just about forever.
 
Too much recoil to handle is subjective. It's about felt recoil, not recoil. Ain't the same thing. Felt recoil is dealt with in multiple manners. Muzzle brakes, heavier rifles, the stock design, etc. Recoil is the same regardless.
How one shoots when hunting isn't the same as on a range. No benches in the bush.
 
Suray.......really?????

When at the range there is nothing saying you can't assume these positions and shoot them to practice..........boy you gotta get out a bit more!!!

Only problem with this is everyone cant shoot sub 1/4" groups when shooting positions........LOL

had the newer guys out just before elk season started and had everyone ringing 10" plates at 300 yards.....difficult.....no but good practice from different positions....sitting, prone, all using bipod for asssiatnce so everyone was comfortable. My boy ends up shooting his cow elk at 140 yards running and offhand and makes a beautiful shot and puts her down................yet one of the other guys, who can hold a 4" group at 300" yards with his new rifle misses a cow elk at 110 yards off the bipod. Goes to show you everyone needs a little / lot of practice when it comes to position shooting!!! And not just from a bench!
 
sunray said:
Too much recoil to handle is subjective. It's about felt recoil, not recoil. Ain't the same thing. Felt recoil is dealt with in multiple manners. Muzzle brakes, heavier rifles, the stock design, etc. Recoil is the same regardless.
How one shoots when hunting isn't the same as on a range. No benches in the bush.
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Exactly. :agree:

Also offhand shooting is a basic skill. Take a look at the old marksmanship program pictures and compare with what one sees these days at the range.

Start here...

http://home.epix.net/~damguy/marksmanship.htm

Methinks too many people are bench lazy these days.
 
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Claven2 said:
A LOT of people use poor prone technique, particularly for calibers with a good measure of recoil. When I go to the range and see people shooting prone, 80% or more of the time, their bodies are in-line with the bore, increasing the friction between the torso and the shooting mat (or ground) and ensuring an entire body length of inertia needs to be overcome by the recoil impulse. This means your shoulder muscles compress more than they should and the recoil will be more likely to hurt you.

This US ARMY training manual image illustrates the proper way to shoot prone.

militaryfiringpositionr.jpg


As can be seen, the upper body linear to the bore is only a fraction of the length of the whole body. This allows the upper torso to act like a spring. Less friction to overcome, less inertia is needed to be overcome by the recoil impulse. The shoulder and torso move back a small amount and then spring forward again as the rifle muzzle is brought back down onto target. The "felt" recoil is thereby much less.

For those scared of prone shooting larger than .270, try this method out - it works - and has been hammered into marksmanship training by the world's militates for just about forever.
Click to expand...

Yes .... if the left hand/ forearm is under the rifle (as it should be) it will be more comfortable (and much better breathing) if you are aligned as shown (although I think the position illustrated is a little exaggerated to get the point across) ... however it is worth identifying that the prone position has undergone a lot of "modification" since this manual was first printed...
 
Recoil is measured in ft/lbs and is not a subjective action, it is real and measureable.......sunray.......perceived recoil involves recoil time, stock design and a persons sensitivity to it. PERIOD
All the factors in perceived recoil can be dealt with through various methods but the only real way to overcome a fear of recoil is to shoot bigger and bigger guns a lot until you become desensitized and realize it doesn't hurt you it just moves you around a bit. The true way to overcome it is to think through it and concentrate through it. Some days are better than others but it is possible to concentrate enough on sight alignment and trigger control to negate the effects of recoil on your shooting. I have shot many, many heavies off the bags and produced many sub minute groups with them, it is possible it just takes concentration. Even my 458 Ruger #1, with it's pi$$ poor stock design, I was able to shoot sub minute groups, but it wasn't pleasant.........sold that POS.
Nothing is free and as the age old adage says..........PRACTISE..PRACTISE...PRACTISE...makes perfect. I think another factor in becoming recoil desensitized is the cost, it is very expensive to shoot a continuous diet of full bore heavy rifle loads, but reduced loads and cast bullets do not work for desensitizing, so the other issue is the ability to afford and prioritize the amount of funds necessary in order to become comfortable with your 378. 416, 458, 470 or what have you. This is probably one of the greatest detriments to big bores, they are hellishly expensive to feed regularly. However there is no other way to do it, so if one can't afford to shoot 500-1000 rounds from their new biggie then possibly they shouldn't buy it. It cost me thousands of dollars in bullets and powder to become proficient with my 470 double, but there just is no way around it if you want to be totally competent with a rifle. I was already totally desensitized to recoil but had never owned a double before so I wasn't 100% familiar with it, to say it's workings weren't second nature, without thinking, as of yet. So in the first months that I owned it I fired something over 700 rounds through it, I know cause I bought every 500 gn Woodleigh bullet in Canada for it and only have a few left. It was my companion every trip to the range for several months with an average of 30-40 shots per session at a modest 3+ bucks per pop !!! Back during my desensitizing time I used to shoot 50 rounds from either my 450 Ackley or one of my 458s every time I went to the range.........one evening I was feeling a little depressed after a lousy day so I went to the range with 100 rounds of 458 and 100 rounds of super loaded 300 gn 44s for my super Blackhawk and came home with out a single loaded cartridge, in a much better frame of mind.
Like Dogleg said, have fun with it, recoil is fun, right up to the 4 bore, so shoot lots and have a lot of fun.............I actually love heavy recoiling rifles, it brings a big grin to my face and warms the cockles of my heart, I may be a bit odd but I really do love it. Besides I've always held the opinion that anybody can shoot a sub minute group with a 22-250 or 223 but it's a whole 'nother ball game to be able to do it consistently with rifles exceeding 70 ft/lbs of free recoil....Eh Boomer.....
 
AP said:
Yes .... if the left hand/ forearm is under the rifle (as it should be) it will be more comfortable (and much better breathing) if you are aligned as shown (although I think the position illustrated is a little exaggerated to get the point across) ... however it is worth identifying that the prone position has undergone a lot of "modification" since this manual was first printed...
Click to expand...

Concur, the image is not the model of modern Bisley prone shooting, but it was the best image I could find to drive home the oblique angle the rifle should have the axis of the body :) I mean... that simple and un-useful sling in the illustration... 'nuff said.
 
If a person needs a heavy rifle then that person needs to learn how to shoot it. A person can learn to shoot a 22 very quickly it takes considerably more time and money to learn how to shoot a 300 mag properly but it can be done by just about anyone.
I get a kick out of the guys who only buy one or two boxes of ammo a year and brag about 400 yard shots, like making a 400 yard shot in the field is nothing, these are the same guys that are usually chasing there zero from the hood of a pickup truck, they almost always have there eyes closed when they jerk the trigger and they quit sighting in as soon as they hit a beer can on the side of a gravel pit.
Now that's not to say that a good shot can't be made off the top of a pickup or everyone of these guys are buffoons.
People are smart and if you teach a guy the right way to shoot and give em enough ammo to learn how to shoot, he will learn to shoot most any common rifle/cartridge combination available today. It takes availability and dedication.
So too much recoil could easily be a 30-06 for some for others it can be a lot more like a 458 magnum. Years ago I could shoot a 458 win mag really well. I most likely couldn't do it today however I could work my way back up to that level if I had to and because I've been shooting for a long time I could probably do it quicker then a newbie working his way up for the first time.
Finally it should be said that several times in my life I've given my self the dreaded FLINCH and as a result I had to back off from the big stuff and get back to the basics and shoot it out.
Good luck eh!
 
Shooting proper big rifles, those above .375 and with some mustard on them, demand their own technique. You lean in and really get behind the rifle, this will quickly become instinctive. I don't know if this works for everybody, but it's my take, I don't go with the rifle I pull it in, lean in, get behind it and take control of it. I had found when "rolling with" the rifle recoil seems much worse, this is what I did in the past when handed big bores for a shot or two. Today I forget the size of the gun and just make the rifle do what I want, that mindset will also get you ahead of the gun not behind it. Set yourself up with a good stance, if right handed left foot forward, right back to support, left knee bent slightly more than the still slightly bent right (rear) knee. Get almost slightly exaggeratedly forward and tuck the rifle in tight to both your shoulder and cheek. Pull the trigger thinking about only your targets and in my opinion, stay behind that gun and stop the recoil dead. This is not science, just what works for me, and it lets me shoot guns medium bore and up quite quickly, realistically as quickly as any rifle. I've handed some of these to friends now and watched an exaggerated muzzle high reception of the recoil, and it confused me, as for me they climb but not half that much. Some almost seem to come straight back from my perspective, and when handed to friends end up inclined 30 degrees after the shot. I realised that was exactly how I handled them, too, in the past when handed one and it was all about the shooters being relaxed and wanting to receive the recoil without anticipation or overly tensely.

My advice is don't be afraid to be taught and firm in your handling of big guns, and this said I'm sure it's different for everybody. For me a strong fore end grip to keep the muzzle(s) down and a tight hold into the pocket of the shoulder, keeping your shoulder square as possible to the target through recoil and this I support with my rear placed leg, makes a big difference in recovery time. You push the rifle around rather than it pushing you, I think remembering who's boss silly as that sounds goes a long way in your mindset in how you approach the gun too, you're not afraid of it. Focus on targets too, forget the recoil, just remember why you're shooting it, it's not to experience the recoil, it's to hit something, hard. This is one of the problems of trying a one off shot of a big bore at the range, few even really pay attention to a target, it's all about experiencing the recoil- and with it that much on your mind it can mess with you. So if offered a .450 and up, try and hit something, a clod of dirt or whatever, and focus your attention on where that shot goes. You'll find a similar mindset as when hunting, just in mild form, where recoil becomes a secondary consideration- hitting your target is primary. Also focus on the job to do in the recovery, and your next shot, before you know it they're just rifles. That's my recent experience anyhow.
 
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