Sighting in .223 with reloads
- Thread starter desjardo
- Start date
Here is what I do with a new rifle/scope and new ammo.
I load about 20 rounds of the START load in the book. I use this to get the scope on paper (usually a shot at 25 yards first, to make some coarse adjustments). Once the START load is on paper at 100, I shoot a group. based on the group, I make a scope adjustment.
Then I shoot the 10 round batches of ammo loaded in 0.5 gr increments. After each group I make another minor scope adjustment.
After the session, the scope is zeroed pretty close, and I have 6 or 8 different loads to look at to consider which one will become my standard load for that rifle.
I load about 20 rounds of the START load in the book. I use this to get the scope on paper (usually a shot at 25 yards first, to make some coarse adjustments). Once the START load is on paper at 100, I shoot a group. based on the group, I make a scope adjustment.
Then I shoot the 10 round batches of ammo loaded in 0.5 gr increments. After each group I make another minor scope adjustment.
After the session, the scope is zeroed pretty close, and I have 6 or 8 different loads to look at to consider which one will become my standard load for that rifle.
K.I.S.S.
Put a piece of paper anywhere around 20 yards or so.
Through the barrel, look at the piece of paper and adjust scope accordingly.
Fire a round and hit paper.
Move to 100 yard and do your load development.
Once you have a load you like, sight scope to zero.
In the meantime, anything on paper is good. Load development doesn't require a bullseye.
Good luck
Put a piece of paper anywhere around 20 yards or so.
Through the barrel, look at the piece of paper and adjust scope accordingly.
Fire a round and hit paper.
Move to 100 yard and do your load development.
Once you have a load you like, sight scope to zero.
In the meantime, anything on paper is good. Load development doesn't require a bullseye.
Good luck
I've had good luck doing as 9x19p says but starting at 100 yds. Be sure to sandbag the rifle nice and solid then remove the bolt and center the target in the bore while you look through it. Then, being careful not to bump the rifle, look through the scope and adjust the crosshairs to the center of the target. This may take a few tries but works great, getting me less than 10" from center of target or less. POI will change with each powder charge when using bigger steps like .5 gr so you'll need to do a final sight in once you find your load.
What I did last time with my 243 was. My loads were in between 38gr - 42gr and I started with like 12 rounds of 39grs to fowl up the barrel and I used them to get me on paper. I think I also started around 25yds then moved back. I thought its worked out pretty good being the first time I had to do something like this.
I did this yesterday, actually, for my first try at reloading .223 for the AR. I used 335 CFE H4895 RL7 loaded in batches of 10 from min to max in .5 increments with Frontier bullets and cci SR primers
335 didn't group worth a damn at any load - maybe needs magnum primers? (It was -2 yesterday)
CFE was the best at 27.5 - 8 shots of ten within the bounds of a 1 inch square on the target at 100m with 2 others an inch away left and right.
4895 was so so
RL7 was surprisingly good in the range of 20.5 to 21.5 gr - I loaded those mainly to try in my 7.5" but they were decent in my 14.5
335 didn't group worth a damn at any load - maybe needs magnum primers? (It was -2 yesterday)
CFE was the best at 27.5 - 8 shots of ten within the bounds of a 1 inch square on the target at 100m with 2 others an inch away left and right.
4895 was so so
RL7 was surprisingly good in the range of 20.5 to 21.5 gr - I loaded those mainly to try in my 7.5" but they were decent in my 14.5
Mark you may want to try smaller increments. .5 gr is a good starting point for .308 but .223 uses about half the powder making .5 gr rather large increments. I found that groups would be all over the place using .5 gr in .223 and I'd go right past a node and never see it between a 3" group on one side and 4" on the other. .2 gr is more work but min/max range with .223 often isn't terribly wide and you'll get a more accurate picture of where you stand and where to go. Hope this helps!
You have to work up the load from the starting load given in your manual. When you're testing them, you don't worry about where the bullet hits. Just the group size. So assuming your rifle is sighted in with factory, there is no sighting in. That comes after you have a group.
I'd be thinking heavier bullet with that twist, but Hodgdon gives 23.0 to 25.3 of H335 for a 55 grain bullet. The brand of bullet other than Barnes' copper bullets, doesn't matter.
I'd be thinking heavier bullet with that twist, but Hodgdon gives 23.0 to 25.3 of H335 for a 55 grain bullet. The brand of bullet other than Barnes' copper bullets, doesn't matter.
Thanks for the advice and first hand experience. That had come to mind, but I had hoped that I would get close with .5. I'll go over my range notes, see where the not so horrible groups were, and try .2 on either side of them.
No magnum primers then? That would be a good thing.
CFE223 was the one I had hoped to run anyway, at least until I see if it lives up to the hype. Otherwise 335 seems plentiful enough and it's one of the cheaper options.
I enjoy testing loads, though. Blasting has its place, but making a gun perform, especially this cheap norc AR, will be satisfying.
desjardo
1. Make workup loads starting low and work up reading your primers and looking for your best group size/accuracy.
2. Make up some low startup loads as sighters to get you on the various targets below. You WILL be making adjustment depending on your scopes height above the bore
3. After you shoot your workup loads and find your best load then make the final sight adjustments.
4. Download the sight in targets below for 25, 50 and 100 yards. (I used the 50 yard target below for 100 yards.
http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=529846
NOTE: I went from a red dot sight to a 1 to 4 power scope on my AR15 carbine and made the mistake of using the middle target at the link above at 25 yards and then went to 100 yards using the 50 yard target. At 100 yards I thought I missed the target after firing three rounds BUT they were in the large black ring at 12 O'clock, and I could not see the holes in the black with a 4 power scope.
More good info below.
223 Rem + 223 AI Cartridge Guide
http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/
1. Make workup loads starting low and work up reading your primers and looking for your best group size/accuracy.
2. Make up some low startup loads as sighters to get you on the various targets below. You WILL be making adjustment depending on your scopes height above the bore
3. After you shoot your workup loads and find your best load then make the final sight adjustments.
4. Download the sight in targets below for 25, 50 and 100 yards. (I used the 50 yard target below for 100 yards.
http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=529846
NOTE: I went from a red dot sight to a 1 to 4 power scope on my AR15 carbine and made the mistake of using the middle target at the link above at 25 yards and then went to 100 yards using the 50 yard target. At 100 yards I thought I missed the target after firing three rounds BUT they were in the large black ring at 12 O'clock, and I could not see the holes in the black with a 4 power scope.
More good info below.
223 Rem + 223 AI Cartridge Guide
http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/
Last edited:
Other than solving hang fires, was it generally more consistent on the paper with magnum primers? I've had no ignition issues thus far.
I suppose I should get a chrony. I'm just not wanting to bring computers into my gun hobby. I do IT for work. I shoot to get away from the bloody stuff!
One other question. Does anyone use CCI #41 primers or think they are a good idea?
I notice that I do get some flow around the firing pin strike even at moderate loads, as well as a few cratered primers at hotter loads, with no other pressure signs.
Or is it more a matter of uniforming the primer pockets so that they seat a touch more deeply (As I do for the M-305 .308)?
I notice that I do get some flow around the firing pin strike even at moderate loads, as well as a few cratered primers at hotter loads, with no other pressure signs.
Or is it more a matter of uniforming the primer pockets so that they seat a touch more deeply (As I do for the M-305 .308)?
Mark-II
Remington ran our Lake City Army Ammunition Plant from 1941 till 1982 and used 7 1/2 primers in all the 5.56 ammunition. Just look in the Sierra reloading manual and the 7 1/2 primer is used. These CCI 34 and 41 primers are just a way for Federal to charge more money to the Government. The M16s firing pin was lightened in 1963 just like the M14s firing pin was lightened to help prevent slam fires. Military standards are the primer should be seated .006 to .008 below the surface of the base of the case.
On my reloads I uniform all the primer pockets, flash holes, etc. when prepping the brass. "BUT" that is the decision of the person pulling the trigger and how uniform you want your brass.
As long as you use primers with a cup thickness of .025 you are good to go on semi-auto rifles with free floating firing pins.
When Alliant Techsystems (ATK-Federal) took over operations at Lake City in April 2001 they "invented" the CCI 34 and 41 primers and sold them to the military. BUT for over 40 years standard primers with a cup thickness of .025 were used by the military. And my reload for my two AR15 rifles use this thickness primers and I have NEVER had a slam fire in any rifle in over 47 years of reloading.
When I reload my .223/5.56 with harder to ignite ball power I use the Remington 7 1/2 primers, the very same primer the military used to ignite the harder to light off Winchester ball powders loaded in the 5.56 ammunition.
Last edited:
There is a scale of ignition issues relating to primers and ball powder.
Bigger groups.
Hang fires
Misfires
Bigger groups and hangfires are enough reason to change. Buy a pack of magnum, or at least a hot primer like Winchester or Remington, and try them to see if the group improves.
A misfire can destroy your rifle. The primer will fire an pop the bullet into the throat. Hopefully not deep, so that the next round won't chamber. Then you will check and find powder in the action and figure out there is a barrel obstruction.
But, if the bullet is a little bit into the barrel, and you bang on the forward assist, you might get the bolt to close (bullet in new cartridge might be pushed deeper into the case. The result is not good.
For this reason I suggest the hotter primer, as the loading manual probably suggests. Read my comment below about learning from the experience of others.
Last edited:
I'm the complete opposite. When I'm testing loads groups do not matter at all. What I'm looking for is a series of groups/powder charges(half grain increments will get you into the zone)that hit in the same place on the target. That signifies that the harmonics of the barrel are releasing the bullet at the same point in the vibration every time. Once you find that you simply adjust the seating depths until it shoots the way you want it to. Pretty simple really. Feel free to shoot the tests at 100m too. Once you get it close then it's a good idea to shoot it at longer range to make sure it works further out as well. I've never had one not shoot at longer distance when the testing and fiddling was all done at 100m.
Thanks for the explanation and details, guys. I think I'll just switch to magnum primers across the board for my auto loaders and save the regular CCI400 and dominion arms/ murom ones for my 30m1 revolver. I didn't realize that the magnums had thicker cups for one thing. That ought to help with the sporadic cratering.
CCI 450 or Remington 7 1/2 it is.
Hope the OP got some good info here too.
CCI 450 or Remington 7 1/2 it is.
Hope the OP got some good info here too.
Before you make a big investment in Remington, try a pack. If memory serves, they have a soft cup that does crater a lot. Maybe bigedp51 can chime in on that.
I have just gone through a case of Remingtons. I used them for my ball powder plinking (CQB) loads. This is a mild load and they provided good ignition and cratering is not an issue.
I have just gone through a case of Remingtons. I used them for my ball powder plinking (CQB) loads. This is a mild load and they provided good ignition and cratering is not an issue.
All right, thanks again. If I can't find CCI in town I'll find them in Brandon when I go out for the show. I'd rather stick with one brand for consistency anyway. I'm not as anal as a precision reloader, but if I can easily cut a few variables in the name of consistency and repeatability then it makes sense to, since nothing is as frustrating as a Pet Load with an attitude problem!
