Sheep Changes Coming

Well I wasn't going from "what I remember" but the published results....the ones you called "speculation" I'll go with Geist's results. I suspect that it's better to look at studies on bighorn mortality rather than thinhorn mortality in Alaska when talking about bighorns....at least that's what I'm speculating.
 
Lets not forget you were the one that said "its easy to imagine 50%..." and "some people say much higher".

By all means post your numbers and the context in which they were reported. Do you think Geist would say that mortality rates are consistent across management schemes, year to year, location to location? Not likely. Let's also remember that the system in Alaska was designed around ideas developed by Geist while in Alberta.
 
Lol....enough deflection from the real issue. Back to worrying about what the Alberta government is planning.
 
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So when does APOS go crying to the gov to go to a draw instead of full curl? Or ask for some allocations south of HWY 1?

Hopefully they'll join the other AGMAG groups in a unified opposition like they did in 2013. It made for a pretty forceful and effective opposition. Not often you see an 11th hour change of heart from the Government but not often you see all hunting groups working together for the common good either. Likely a lesson to be learned there.
 
APOS operating for the collective good of all hunters? I'll believe that when I see it. From what I understand they are lobbying for a LEH. And I also hear the lobbying might be making it all the way to the minister of ESRD this week...

In order to get there they would need the full curl rule thrown out. This has nothing to do with anything other than them driving a desire to have less folks in the hills competing for the sheep they feel they are entitled to.

I am hearing that we are getting full curl or draw, so not to hard to know which one I would prefer.
 
I saw APOS not wanting a full curl rule - I have yet to see them oppose LEH, which would vastly limit resident opportunity. If they come out and state that then they will have my attention.

They opposed all changes in 2013 along with the other AGMAG groups that were part of the sheep meetings....that's why the 11th hour change on the two-week shortening of the season in 2013. Full curl and LEH were not in the changes presented by ESRD in February 2013....just the shortening of the season which had minimal effect on non-resident opportunity yet APOS stood with the other groups in opposition. Lots of other things to bash APOS about no doubt but these are the 2013 facts.
 
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Yep - the changes they opposed benefited them directly.

They want a draw, casue it would benefit them the most. And would negatively impact the resident hunter the most.

I'm sorry, but a group of guys that make a living off a public resource should have the last say in the management of the resource. They should work within the confines of the management strategies outlined by the Province. Nobody forced their hand to pay big cash for a business model that may have limitations beyond their control.

I also hear they want tags in the south - I would think the general herd health and Ram quality found in the south might be a good indicator how outfitting negatively impacts the resource. Perhaps we should stop all outfitting and run a 5 year pilot to see if things improve?
 
Lots of speculation and "I've heard" talk going around and it may or may not be true....I was just stating the facts from 2013 and will stick to the facts in the present. Hopefully a similar coalition forms in response to the 2016 changes. If the groups learned anything from history, I suspect it will. It will be interesting to see what transpires in March. Not much sense speculating until then and getting indigestion over it. I'll save that for Christmas day and turkey overload. You do remember who it is that is proposing these changes right? Keep your eye on the prize and ignore the blue bikes going by. ESRD is relying on you losing focus.
 
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APOS operating for the collective good of all hunters? I'll believe that when I see it. From what I understand they are lobbying for a LEH. And I also hear the lobbying might be making it all the way to the minister of ESRD this week...

In order to get there they would need the full curl rule thrown out. This has nothing to do with anything other than them driving a desire to have less folks in the hills competing for the sheep they feel they are entitled to.

I am hearing that we are getting full curl or draw, so not to hard to know which one I would prefer.


That's pretty alarming Norskie, a draw would be detrimental to resident sheep hunting in this province. Not surprising that they would prefer that to a full curl reg.

There has been whispers of sheep hunting going to a draw for some time now and it's no secret that that ESRD wants a change in some form or another.

Ideally they deal with issues on a case by case basis and don't implement sweeping reg changes because of a few problem zones, but if the choice is between full curl and a draw I can see where each group would stand.
 
Lots of speculation and "I've heard" talk going around and it may or may not be true....I was just stating the facts from 2013 and will stick to the facts in the present. Hopefully a similar coalition forms in response to the 2016 changes. If the groups learned anything from history, I suspect it will. It will be interesting to see what transpires in March. Not much sense speculating until then and getting indigestion over it. I'll save that for Christmas day and turkey overload. You do remember who it is that is proposing these changes right? Keep your eye on the prize and ignore the blue bikes going by. ESRD is relying on you losing focus.

I don't think focus is a problem, with these guys anyways. If you remember back to the HFH RAMP stuff I think they have a good handle on keeping their eye on the prize. Fact is there is moving parts and variables to deal with and this is one of them. Each stakeholder group has to look out for their membership as I'm sure you know.
 
Each stakeholder group has to look out for their membership as I'm sure you know.

Absolutely......it's nice when there is one solution that satisfies all as there was in 2013 and possibly again in 2016. Why is it some on this board are trying to horse-trade with ESRD already? We saw the power of a united front in 2013. Are people's memories really that short or would people just rather give up something for the opportunity to bash on another group. Both seem fairly short-sighted. Nice thing this time around is that we have time.....last time we didn't but perhaps that was an ESRD ploy as well. Gives us plenty more time to feed on our own. I'm willing to wait until March to see what dog and pony show ESRD rolls out and how the AGMAG groups officially react. But I guess we could keep throwing the baby out with the bathwater in the meantime.........What's the big hurry to give a chunk of our hunting heritage away?
 
We'll see.

But sitting back and waiting at the table guarentees nothing. Likely why the APOS is trying to meet with the minister before the March meeting. I am sure they would love nothing more than to have the idea of a draw get legs, and the easiest route there is to kill the full curl rule.

I think in this instance we'd gladly abort the baby pre term to save the resident opportunity.
 
We'll see.

But sitting back and waiting at the table guarentees nothing.
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It guarantees we know the facts before heading off half cocked is response to something we heard. It guarantees we know the facts before offering up anything in return. It guarantees we can best look after the needs of sheep first...then resident opportunity. It guarantees we won't make an enemy out of a group that could and has been an ally.

I suspect APOS meetings with the Minister are pretty routine...just as they are with AFGA, ACA, etc. It sounds like this one has not been easy to get a meeting with so I suspect all groups are seeking an opportunity to discuss a variety of issues. I'm sure you know what's going to transpire in March, so I can't see why you are so anxious to give away hunting opportunity.....just to beat APOS to punch you heard a rumour they might be throwing. I doubt the Minister will be making any decisions before then either. Considering this Minister's involvement in F&W he likely doesn't even know what's going on. Never hurts to send him a letter and say you are concerned though.
 
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We'll see.

But sitting back and waiting at the table guarentees nothing. Likely why the APOS is trying to meet with the minister before the March meeting. I am sure they would love nothing more than to have the idea of a draw get legs, and the easiest route there is to kill the full curl rule.

I think in this instance we'd gladly abort the baby pre term to save the resident opportunity.

The new elk management strategy that will certainly limit opportunities for Alberta’s hunters was proposed by APOS. APOS members “concluded” that resident Alberta hunters were not having “quality” hunts for bull elk and suggested that a six point bull elk draw would be the best solution to this horrible atrocity.

Greg Hale, ESRD biologist, confirmed earlier this year that antlered elk (in at least some 300 and 400 zones) would be going to a six point rule. There are two options available to SRD, a six point general tag or a six point draw (sound familiar?). This is supposed to go into effect for 2015 and while there were meetings with local Fish & Game Associations and other stakeholder groups, there was no consultation only notification of changes.

If it goes to draw, Mr. Hale expected that it will take a minimum of P10 to be successful in pulling one of these tags.

Somewhat ironically, Mr. Hale conceded that the elk herds in Southwest Alberta were healthy, the numbers were high and he had finished meeting with several area landowners (immediately prior to the meeting) that were very concerned and frustrated with increasing numbers of elk, damage to haystacks, pastures and fences. His observations on the superior genetics of 6 point bulls also created a lot of confusion in the room.

So why the changes to antlered and antlerless elk draws?

I saw the APOS Proposed Elk Management Strategies drafted in 2010. APOS wanted a six point rule and they preferred it to go to draw. This was under the guise that this would be good for Alberta resident hunters and give them the quality hunts Albertans wanted and deserved. If I can find a copy of the document I will post so there is no confusion.

Of course, under current distribution rules, APOS would get a percentage of these new tags and should be able to generate better revenue as there will be less hunting opportunity for resident hunters, decreased competition for outfitters and bigger bulls available to those drawn and (of course) the paying customer.

Given their elk management proposal and apparent pull with ESRD, I think most resident sheep hunters should have legitimate concerns with regard to APOS and their agenda. In my opinion, and in my observations as an area landowner and hunter, the facts have been completely ignored and a decision was made in advance. And while I recognize that sheep aren't elk, it appears that the players making the calls are pretty much the same.

Best of luck guys!
 
Not saying you are wrong Moon but the Alberta Bowhunters Association presented the suggested regulation change below to AGMAG.....not APOS......are you referencing something different?




TITLE OF REG. CHANGE PROPOSAL ----



1. CURRENT STRATEGY

What regulation or system is currently in place?

In zone 302, 303, 304, 305, 306, 308, 310 the regulations for antlered elk are 3 point or better.

2. CONCERN

What could be improved with the current regulation or system?

There is a change I would like to see to the regulations in foothills region of Southern Alberta - particularly in the Porcupine Hills area. I hunt elk exclusively with my bow and it has been 15 years since I have seen a mature bull elk in that area. It seems that all the legal bulls are killed during rifle season (anything other than a spiker). The only bulls that are around are the rag horns and they only last till the first rifle season.

3. INFORMATION TO SUPPORT CHANGE

What sort of information (data or otherwise) do you have that provides support to the proposed changed in regulation or system that is currently in place?

If there was census counts of mature bull elk, that data would support my case.

4. RECOMMENDED CHANGE

State what you would like the new regulation or system to be:

The regulations should change to 6 point or better for antlered elk for rifle. That would change the hunting experience in that area in a good way for rifle and archery hunters.
 
Surely you jest Moon - I mean I have just been told of APOS's honorable intentions:bsFlag:

And this situation seems to similar to when the whole Open spaces fiasco started, there were a small group running around spewing the "wait for the facts" "you're chicken little" lines, all the while the decisions were being made and policy was being pushed forward.

I think I'll choose to keep abreast of any developments and use that info to arm guys at the table and make my own pleas to government. Largely becasue I don't trust government, especially when its prone to interest groups and lobbying.
 
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