Need help rechambering a 44 mag with a very sloppy chamber

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commonman

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I think this may sort of fall under wildcatting, so am posting this here to tap into that resourse.

I have an older h&r break open rifle in 44 mag. Rifle is in good condition and shoots well. But the chamber is grossly over sized to the point that fired cases have a huge bulge above the head. Gun is still accurate so everyone will tell me not to worry but I'm a bit OCD I guess. I like to reload and hate having my cases buggered up for one thing and i like the feel and balance of this gun. So i want to make it so I am happy with it not just toss it away.

This chamber is so large that i can shoot 44-40 loads in it. 44 mags literally rattle around in there if you shake the gun when it is loaded. I can trim 44-40 cases to use in it but then have a lot of neck stretch as the 44-40 has a smaller neck diameter. So i want to make a case that will either fit the ugly chamber (not easy) or allow for the chamber for the new case to completly remove the old ugly one. Now i have been looking at the possibility of basing a new case on the case of a S&W 460. The rim is very close to the 44 mag and the diameter is .478" which is .0085" larger than my ugly chamber. Then length can be anything from 1.800" down to the 44 mag length. Of course it will need to be necked down to fit rhe .432 bullets.

I hope someone can point me in the right direction here. Oh and i know about what this will cost and that is not the issue.
 
3 ideas
Barrel liner

rebarrel it


or is a 45 colt case wildcat and putting a reduced shoulder on it like 357 sig and call it for example 45/44
it would depend on the mouth being the correct size
it would call for a custom reamer to be made
and a 44 mag set of dies to be altered to reload it (or custom dies)
it would also take finding the right gunsmith to do the work
lots of $$$$
 
Have it reamed out for the 444 Marlin. If I remember correctly it is a little lager in the body diameter through the base and soots the same Dia bullets

Neil
 
Some of those options might work, but none of them address the fact you're going to be spending $hundreds on a rifle that's never going to be worth $200 even after you "fix" it. It's like spending $3000 to fix the transmission in a vehicle that's worth $500 - it doesn't make sense.

Use that money towards a new rifle and you'll be ahead and happier in the long run.
 
just having some fun said:
3 ideas
Barrel liner

rebarrel it


or is a 45 colt case wildcat and putting a reduced shoulder on it like 357 sig and call it for example 45/44
it would depend on the mouth being the correct size
it would call for a custom reamer to be made
and a 44 mag set of dies to be altered to reload it (or custom dies)
it would also take finding the right gunsmith to do the work
lots of $$$$
Click to expand...


Barrel contour makes a liner very difficult. It's a break action rifle so rebarreling is like building a new gun. I tnought of the 45 colt case and that is what led me to the 460 S&W as it closer to the 44 mag rim etc.
 
Neilm said:
Have it reamed out for the 444 Marlin. If I remember correctly it is a little lager in the body diameter through the base and soots the same Dia bullets

Neil
Click to expand...

I like this idea too but this old rifle was not made to handle 444 pressures. What if i shortened it a bit so that factory 444 won't fit and then load to a 44 mag pressure level. How thick is the case wall on a 444 towards the head.
 
The .445 SM is your solution.



P.S - I totally don't get what you were doing with .44/40's in a .44 Mag chamber???
 
hoytcanon said:
The .445 SM is your solution.



P.S - I totally don't get what you were doing with .44/40's in a .44 Mag chamber???
Click to expand...


Hey what I don't get is why they fit.

Look at the cartridge dimensions, trim of .020" and length is now the same but the diameter should be .014" less. No way it should go into a 44 mag chamber, but this chamber they do. I trim the 44-40 case and load a 44-40 load behind a .430" bullet and it works good, shoots well too.

So none of my manuals have the 445 info in them. Online I find that they are basically a 44 mag case lengthened. I don't see how that will help me clean up the old chamber, it is already bigger around than a 44 mag should be.
 
The 44 mag gun has a different receiver that is not made to handle 444 pressure. Hoytcanon will know more about this than anyone on CGN
 
The 444 is a bit wider at the web than the 44 Mag. 0.47 vs. 0.457 Is that enough to solve the problem? You could make the chamber shorter than the 444 to keep a full power round out of the chamber.
 
Ganderite said:
The 444 is a bit wider at the web than the 44 Mag. 0.47 vs. 0.457 Is that enough to solve the problem? You could make the chamber shorter than the 444 to keep a full power round out of the chamber.
Click to expand...

Yes .470" would just cover it and a length of 1.800 to 2.000 would work well with say 265/300 gr cast and a fast rifle powder. But I was concerned about how thick the case wall of a 444 is at about 1.600 to 2.000, as I would prefer to not have to do a lot of neck turning, I know fussy. Is that piece of information out there somewhere?
 
Is the expansion of the case only around the case head? If the fired cases extract fairly easily and the cases are only seriously expanding around the head could you not just try partial resizing of the case, sort of like neck sizing bottleneck rifle cases? That should eliminate the sloppy fit of the cases around the head and will also minimize work hardening of the cases from resizing. You should only have to size the case far enough down to put neck tension on the bullet. If this eliminates case movement in the chamber it might even result in improved accuracy.
 
For simplicity I would still go with the 444. You can load it to whatever pressure levels you want. The only concern would be inadvertently shooting factory ammo in it . If your the sole provider of ammo there is no problem The reason I say for simplicity you don't need a custom ordered reamer or custom ordered dies.Just the way I would go.

Neilm
 
Of course none of this makes economic sense - brass life might be affected, but 44 Mag brass is cheap.

If you can get over the cosmetics of the bulge, you could neck size the brass to improve brass life. I'd try inserting the 44 Mag brass half-way into a 6.5X52 Carcano Seater die. I tried it, and it gave an inside and outside diameter that's very close to what my 44 Mag F/L die gave when fully seated - at least the RCBS die I have did. These vary a bit and Lee or Hornady dies will be close to RCBS and each other, but will vary slightly. The nice thing is that is the F/L Sizing Die you have is too tight, the Seater Die will be a few thou looser. If you go a bit tight (i.e. 2-3 thou) and seating becomes difficult, you can bell the mouth ala what Cast Bullet folks do.

P.S. Look here - this is a very useful site for reloaders and the otherwise curious: http://www.stevespages.com/page8d.htm
 
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I've a 445 Webley that is impossible to find shells for. 444 Marlin cut down fits it like it was meant to. Sounds similar to the dimensions on yours...mine is actually an easy fix other than ' The crimp' as the 444 brass ups the pressure containment levels ( Not on any quantifiable level, of course. ..but it does for sure) and mine just wants a full case of BP.
It's a valid suggestion OP, I'd consider something along this line of thinking.
 
The easiest solution is to prep the fire-formed brass, adjust your dies just deep enough to give sufficient neck tension to retain the bullet... AND start viewing the bulge as a tool to help you arrest the advancement of your OCD to "Howie Mandell" levels...
 
Others have mentioned the economics of doing this - that's up to you to decide..
But you need to determine the reason for the grossly over-sized chamber before you do anything - was it bad machining? or a material defect in the barrel?
Was the chamber bulged by an over-load or a "pressure event"?
Convince yourself that what you are doing is safe!

There are two approaches that haven't been elaborated on in this thread yet, that could yield acceptable results, without spending a major pile of cash on a rifle of low value..

This method is cheap if you can do the work yourself, and likely nonviable if you have to pay someone to do it. It hasn't been mentioned in the thread yet, but is a proven solution.
Google "barrel stubbing".
You would cut the chamber end off the barrel, and use the remainder of the barrel to stub into that breech block. Cut a new chamber.. Your barrel with be about 3 inches shorter.

Personally, I would initially stay from chambering work on the rifle, and would find a die set-up and a basic cartridge case that works to solve the issue...
1) Do a chamber cast of the rifle, and find out what you are really working with. CanAmmo has cerrosafe. (One hint is that 44-40 works, so could it be a 44/40 chamber mis-marked? or has it been reamed to 44 Automag?) If the cerrosafe sticks in the chamber because the chamber is bulged, consider yourself lucky.
2) Snoop around "Steves pages" that Andy linked to above, and find a cartridge that has the right taper on the body, that approximates what you are looking for - perhaps a 7x57 or 7.62x54? Base diameter of the parent cartridge isn't all that critical, a die can be shortened quite effectively with a zip cut and a bench grinder, to get to the base diameter you need. A lathe really helps :d
3) Pick the rimmed cartridge that you are starting with ie 45 colt, 454, 460S&W, 307, 444, whatever, and trim the case 20, 50 or 100 thou longer than final length needed. Resize with the body die.
4) Neck size with your 44mag die, adjusting the die to just form to the shoulder. You may need to modify your 44mag die to get acceptable concentricity..
5) Trim to length, and try it in the chamber. Does it chamber? If not, go back to step 2, 3 or 4 and adjust, try again..
6) Does the case mouth need reaming? Did you start with the right case?
My LGS has bins of old used dies that they sell for about 10$ each, so that makes it cheaper to experiment - your mileage may vary.

Your 44/460 actually sounds cool too, and a you can make a reamer yourself if you know what you are doing, and go slow cutting the chamber....
And I'm sure PTG will grind one up for you also.
It all depends on what you want to spend, and what you hope to achieve..
 
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