Sniper Ammo

Canadian snipers were not issued special ammo because none was made.

They did, however, pick from what lots were available and run their own tests. When they found a lot number that shot especially well, a good supply was sequestered from that manufacturing lot and put aside for the Sniper section.

Following basic selection, individuals would conduct their own private tests for bullet runout, concentricity, seating depth, primer crimp and anything else which could be thought up, short of firing the stuff off. This was the same procedure as used in the Imperial Matches prior to the War.

Then followed zeroing of the rifles themselves, using the new Lot number of ammunition.

Generally, a rifle/ammunition combination would be deemed "acceptable" to Canadian snipers if it would keep them ALL under an English penny at 100 yards. Being that the Penny in use was about 1.2 inches in diameter, this standard would give acceptable performance out to 500. Some rifles, of course, would shoot better, but all rifles were checked out very carefully by the men who carried and used them.

Source of most of this information was Capt. D.C.M. Elliott, a Canadian who operated a Sniper group of 47 men which worked with the Lovat Scouts in the D-Day invasion.
 
He is one of the main reason why I continue to come day after day, just to have the pleasure of increasing my knowledge by reading his posts. Him and few other very knowledgeable men are the true soul of this forum.

Thanks smellie!!
 
It's tough to locate .303, .30-06 or 7.62x51 military ball ammo which will do better than 2 MOA. Back when the FN was used for competitive shooting the idea was to locate a particular lot of ball ammo which would shoot better and to then secure a quantity of this lot for competitive shooting. I think that it would have been pretty tough to locate and fence off a better than average lot of ammo for snipers in a combat theatre. Snipers only accounted for a very small fraction of ammo as most was used for MGs and rifleman on the line. Small arms ammo is issued by the truckload and lot number control for sniper use would be an expectation that would have been very hard to deliver on.

The .303 with it's longer 174gr bullet exhibited good ballistic performance at extended ranges as did the .30-06 M1 ball which used a 172gr bullet. M2 ball with a 152gr bullet was the most common .30-06 ammo used in WW2, although a lot of 168gr AP ammo was also put up in Garand en blocs. I remember buying a swack of this in en blocs from the old Super S Drug Store in Calgary back in the 1972/73 timeframe (how drug stores have changed). Because of it's better long range properties 168gr AP was used for competitive shooting by the US services post WW2 until match ammo with a 172gr boattail was re-introduced. And guess where Sierra got the idea of developing their benchmark 168gr Match bullet for competitive shooting.

For those who believe that every No4 Mk1 (T) was capable of gilt edge accuracy, Cdn Army E.M.E.I.s tell a different story. The required grouping standard for 5 shots with ball ammo was 3"x3", although many would do better. I recommend the book, With British Snipers To the Reich, by Capt. C Shore. This provides a wealth of information on various weapons, ammo and sniper tactics. Shore was very fond of the P14 Enfield and mentions getting consistently good accuracy with W.R.A. produced contract .303 ball ammo. Interestingly, this ammo was loaded with a ball powder which later morphed into the BLC2 that we are still shooting today. Shore opines that an EXCELLENT shot could put up consistent 3-4 MOA groups with ball ammo and iron sights @ 100 yds while a SUPERB shot was one who could produce consistent 2 MOA groups @ 100 yds with a scoped rifle. This tends to confirm that a man who was shooting a mechanically sound rifle with excellent shooting techniques was reaching the accuracy limitations of most wartime ball ammo.

Shore ran a sniper school for the British Army in NW Europe and makes a lot of practical observations based on his experiences. He stresses the proper use of fieldcraft for a successful sniper and notes that a good shot with a hunting background generally made a better sniper than did a "range lizard".
 
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Russian snipers when it was available would get lots that were made for SHKAS aircraft machine guns. This ammo was more closely controlled during manufacture due to its need to be consistent when fired through the blades of the propeller of the aircraft. More controll during production, better consistency during firing, results in better grouping.
 
gewehr76 said:
Russian snipers when it was available would get lots that were made for SHKAS aircraft machine guns. This ammo was more closely controlled during manufacture due to its need to be consistent when fired through the blades of the propeller of the aircraft. More controll during production, better consistency during firing, results in better grouping.
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Is this the ammo that the Russians designate 7N1, or is that designation a post-WWII thing?

I have read that a Mosin 91/30 sniper rifle with a trained sniper was expected to be able to put 10 rounds of service ammo into 1.38 inches at 100 yards (meters?) with service ammo. That would be a damned good performance even today (if it's true - seems to good to BE true to me).
 
There was no special ammo for anybody in war time. Match ammo was loaded, Stateside, for their National Matches, but not during W.W. II. No National Matches during 1917 and limited in 1918. Regular ball ammo in 1918 and selected lots of service ammunition in 1919.
The Cdn Army what, tell a different story? That'd be RCEME's.
.30 M1 ball used a 174.5 gr bullet. And was discontinued in 1940.
 
shredder said:
Is this the ammo that the Russians designate 7N1, or is that designation a post-WWII thing?

I have read that a Mosin 91/30 sniper rifle with a trained sniper was expected to be able to put 10 rounds of service ammo into 1.38 inches at 100 yards (meters?) with service ammo. That would be a damned good performance even today (if it's true - seems to good to BE true to me).
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I believe the 7N1 is relatively new, like 1996ish.

I have heard that Russian snipers would prefer to use the machine gun ammo over rifle ammo in WWII, because it was a heavier round. Something like a 175g rather than 150.
 
shredder said:
Is this the ammo that the Russians designate 7N1, or is that designation a post-WWII thing?

I have read that a Mosin 91/30 sniper rifle with a trained sniper was expected to be able to put 10 rounds of service ammo into 1.38 inches at 100 yards (meters?) with service ammo. That would be a damned good performance even today (if it's true - seems to good to BE true to me).
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7N1 called снайперские rounds are post WW2 thing designed for SVD. Has nothing to do with machine guns ammo of the aircraft.
Russian snipers were usually issued lots that were available at the time, nothing really different from rest of the army. 7.62x54r was made to certain specks that each factory had to confirm to. So if a crate of ammo was obtained, it gets devided between few shooters then rifles zeroed to the ammo of the same factory, then each round counted during encounter and each shot suppose to produce a kill.
Once ammo gets depleted, new crate is obtained and process repeats.
 
1990's, I don't remember receiving any special sniper or match ammo when shooting the C3 rifle. Just the 20 round carton boxes of IVI ball. Some lots shot better than others. All shot accurate enough to take a target down under 800 meters.
 
I believe German snipers were supposed to be issued with special ammunition intended for use in zeroing rifles, and assembled with a higher level of quality control than standard production ammo. They were told they could specifically request this ammunition when they were at the front, but most of the time it was unavailable and the snipers would use standard service ammunition.

Later on in the war, German snipers were authorized to use explosive bullets against human targets on the Eastern front, as retaliation for Russian snipers who had already been using this explosive ammo against the Germans.
 
sunray said:
T
The Cdn Army what, tell a different story? That'd be RCEME's.
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The Royal Canadian Electrical Mechanical Engineers use Electrical Mechanical Engineers Instructions.

Not sure if we (Canada) used this exact term, but the Australians did and pretty sure the British as well.

They would be the same thing as our current CFTO's (Canadian Forces Technical Orders)
 
Fuzzy Wool Hat said:
I believe German snipers were supposed to be issued with special ammunition intended for use in zeroing rifles, and assembled with a higher level of quality control than standard production ammo. They were told they could specifically request this ammunition when they were at the front, but most of the time it was unavailable and the snipers would use standard service ammunition.

Later on in the war, German snipers were authorized to use explosive bullets against human targets on the Eastern front, as retaliation for Russian snipers who had already been using this explosive ammo against the Germans.
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This^.

Marksmen greatly preferred Anschuss cartridges. Or barrel accuracy testing cartridges. Sadly the only way to identify it is the box or crate label. Individual cartridges don't look different from standard ball. It was similar to the russian stuff, just ball ammo made to exacting specs and tolerances.

And then yes B-Patrone.
 
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