Sniper Ammo

purple said:
It's tough to locate .303, .30-06 or 7.62x51 military ball ammo which will do better than 2 MOA. Back when the FN was used for competitive shooting the idea was to locate a particular lot of ball ammo which would shoot better and to then secure a quantity of this lot for competitive shooting. I think that it would have been pretty tough to locate and fence off a better than average lot of ammo for snipers in a combat theatre. Snipers only accounted for a very small fraction of ammo as most was used for MGs and rifleman on the line. Small arms ammo is issued by the truckload and lot number control for sniper use would be an expectation that would have been very hard to deliver on.

The .303 with it's longer 174gr bullet exhibited good ballistic performance at extended ranges as did the .30-06 M1 ball which used a 172gr bullet. M2 ball with a 152gr bullet was the most common .30-06 ammo used in WW2, although a lot of 168gr AP ammo was also put up in Garand en blocs. I remember buying a swack of this in en blocs from the old Super S Drug Store in Calgary back in the 1972/73 timeframe (how drug stores have changed). Because of it's better long range properties 168gr AP was used for competitive shooting by the US services post WW2 until match ammo with a 172gr boattail was re-introduced. And guess where Sierra got the idea of developing their benchmark 168gr Match bullet for competitive shooting.

For those who believe that every No4 Mk1 (T) was capable of gilt edge accuracy, Cdn Army E.M.E.I.s tell a different story. The required grouping standard for 5 shots with ball ammo was 3"x3", although many would do better. I recommend the book, With British Snipers To the Reich, by Capt. C Shore. This provides a wealth of information on various weapons, ammo and sniper tactics. Shore was very fond of the P14 Enfield and mentions getting consistently good accuracy with W.R.A. produced contract .303 ball ammo. Interestingly, this ammo was loaded with a ball powder which later morphed into the BLC2 that we are still shooting today. Shore opines that an EXCELLENT shot could put up consistent 3-4 MOA groups with ball ammo and iron sights @ 100 yds while a SUPERB shot was one who could produce consistent 2 MOA groups @ 100 yds with a scoped rifle. This tends to confirm that a man who was shooting a mechanically sound rifle with excellent shooting techniques was reaching the accuracy limitations of most wartime ball ammo.

Shore ran a sniper school for the British Army in NW Europe and makes a lot of practical observations based on his experiences. He stresses the proper use of fieldcraft for a successful sniper and notes that a good shot with a hunting background generally made a better sniper than did a "range lizard".
Click to expand...

It's not necessarily the military ball ammunition that limits its accuracy if that makes sense which is about what you stated regarding the rifles that were being used to shoot the stuff.
The rifles they were being used in were not inherently accurate in general. They were rough, mass produced battle rifles.

Canadian C21 IVI 7.62 NATO Ball that's been made since the 60's is capable of very impressive accuracy out of a modern rifle designed for precision from the ground up ie thick barrel, floated from the receiver, precision trigger, very good modern optics, a bedded action etc People would be amazed at the prerequisite manufacturer (IVI) specs dictated by DND as far as maximum allowable dispersion of the cartridge at long distances for a basic ball cartridge. It's expected to be very consistent.
 
Last edited:
37patt said:
The Royal Canadian Electrical Mechanical Engineers use Electrical Mechanical Engineers Instructions.

Not sure if we (Canada) used this exact term, but the Australians did and pretty sure the British as well.

They would be the same thing as our current CFTO's (Canadian Forces Technical Orders)
Click to expand...

I have a copy of Canadian Army E.M.E.I.s for the No4 and CNo7 rifles which I've used for reference for the past 40 yrs or so. Some date back to 1945. These were the original RCEME manuals for inspection and repair. After the military went thru unification they were simply re-numbered as Canadian Forces Technical Orders (CFTOs) with the original E.M.E.I. numbers crossed out.

The Canadian Army maintained doctrinal, equipment and logistics interoperability with the Brits in many areas until the late 1960s when we were shifted from the BAOR in NATO to a reserve role in S.W. Germany in the aftermath of the Trudeau defence cuts.

As far as reserving special lots of rifle ammo in the logistics pipeline for sniper use, I think that this was pretty much a forlorn hope given the massive throughput and consumption of ammo in an active combat theatre. All natures of ammo, except for arty ammo which was always in short supply and tightly controlled by the gunners, were supplied on a push/pull basis. This involved ammo being pushed forward from rear depots and storage areas to designated Corps or Divisional ammo supply points which were then "pulled on" by user formations as needed. Ammo supply in the field is a huge transportation and handling issue with forward supply points normally holding 3-5 days of anticipated consumption. Activity at ammo points is largely an exercise in offloading and temporary storage on pallets under canvas until it was drawn on by user formations and reloaded onto their vehicles for delivery forward. The aim was/is to keep all ammo commodities available at forward supply points without overstocking them to the point where excess ammo built up and might need to be moved again to keep up with the advance or withdrawal as dictated by the operational situation.

There is no doubt that snipers would try to ID the most accurate lots of rifle ammo available and then get a stock of it, where possible, to re-zero weapons and then retain it for combat use. Snipers only used a minute amount of the total volume of rifle caliber ammo in a combat theatre, so the logistics system was not able to guarantee special supply arrangements for them.
 
any sniper rifle from the time could hit its target with standard service ball it just needed the right person behind it I shot my Mosin PU with some surplus it could hit a man size target at 500 yards no problem(this is judging from my 100 yard shots)
 
Dr. Don Heath (aka Ganyana) has an interesting discussion in one of his books regarding "accurate" versus "precise" rifles. When he competed in shooting sports in his youth in South Africa, they were required to use whatever military ammunition was provided at the match - no picking and choosing. He had a "pet" accurate rifle that would shoot a particular lot of S.A. 7.62 into tiny groups, once the barrel was warmed up a bit. He was not competative with that rifle, since the rifle was very fussy about its ammo. He had much greater success with another rifle that would plunk in 2 MOA day in or day out with any lot or most manufacturers of military ammo. Hence his distinction between "precise" versus "accurate" rifles. Consider - if you can aim and release trigger within 1 MOA error, and you're using an absolute, for sure, 2 MOA rifle / ammo, you would have 100% confidence into 12 inches at 400 yards....
 
Ed Smurf said:
Does anyone know if snipers were issued special loads (WW1,WW2) or were they using standard military loads?
Click to expand...

I checked my copy of Kent's German 7,9 Military Ammunition and he states that in WW1 German marksmen were issued rifles with telescopic sights and were able to employ Spitzgeschoss mit Stahlkern (S.m.K.) cartridges which had a hardened bullet - a boat tailed tungsten core bullet in WW1 and a hardened steel bullet, no boat tail in WW2 (pp7-9, p 71, 72). Basically an armour piercing bullet.

Because of the expense of the WW1 cartridge it was only to be issued to marksmen who were to use it with "discretion" and only for "precision shooting".

In WW2 reference is made to the Spitzgeschoss mit Eisenkern (S.m.E.) bullet, this being the hardened iron core bullet - again an armour piercing bullet. Kent further reports that there was a special S.m.E. loading for snipers labelled S.m.E.f.S.S. which according to the Picatinny Arsenal Report on German ordnance means 'fur Scharf shutzenngeeiget' interpreted to mean "suitable for sharpshooters".

Other than those two, there were no more references to sniper ammunition in Kent's book.
 
smellie said:
Canadian snipers were not issued special ammo because none was made.

They did, however, pick from what lots were available and run their own tests. When they found a lot number that shot especially well, a good supply was sequestered from that manufacturing lot and put aside for the Sniper section.

Following basic selection, individuals would conduct their own private tests for bullet runout, concentricity, seating depth, primer crimp and anything else which could be thought up, short of firing the stuff off. This was the same procedure as used in the Imperial Matches prior to the War.

Then followed zeroing of the rifles themselves, using the new Lot number of ammunition.

Generally, a rifle/ammunition combination would be deemed "acceptable" to Canadian snipers if it would keep them ALL under an English penny at 100 yards. Being that the Penny in use was about 1.2 inches in diameter, this standard would give acceptable performance out to 500. Some rifles, of course, would shoot better, but all rifles were checked out very carefully by the men who carried and used them.

Source of most of this information was Capt. D.C.M. Elliott, a Canadian who operated a Sniper group of 47 men which worked with the Lovat Scouts in the D-Day invasion.
Click to expand...



Sounds a lot like what Herb McBride said about ammunition for the machine guns.


mrbeil said:
Man, I love Smellie's posts
Click to expand...


Of course!
 
fugawi said:
I checked my copy of Kent's German 7,9 Military Ammunition and he states that in WW1 German marksmen were issued rifles with telescopic sights and were able to employ Spitzgeschoss mit Stahlkern (S.m.K.) cartridges which had a hardened bullet - a boat tailed tungsten core bullet in WW1 and a hardened steel bullet, no boat tail in WW2 (pp7-9, p 71, 72). Basically an armour piercing bullet.

Because of the expense of the WW1 cartridge it was only to be issued to marksmen who were to use it with "discretion" and only for "precision shooting".

In WW2 reference is made to the Spitzgeschoss mit Eisenkern (S.m.E.) bullet, this being the hardened iron core bullet - again an armour piercing bullet. Kent further reports that there was a special S.m.E. loading for snipers labelled S.m.E.f.S.S. which according to the Picatinny Arsenal Report on German ordnance means 'fur Scharf shutzenngeeiget' interpreted to mean "suitable for sharpshooters".

Other than those two, there were no more references to sniper ammunition in Kent's book.
Click to expand...

Kents book is too old. I've got the newest And generally accepted book on german ww2 cartridges. It's entirely in german. SME is not armor piercing, it was a late war substitute for ball ammo. To save lead.

This book states as I mentioned above, there is no specified sniper ammo in ww2. They just had preferences for other ammo.
This book published in 2010 is now considered the authoritative reference.

Die Patrone 7,9 mm der Deutschen Wehrmacht 1930 -1945

 
English version?

The gist of what Kent seems to be saying sounds the same. There may have been experimental or some specialized ammo but for all intents and purposes German snipers used what was available.

What does Die Patrone 7,9 mm der Deutschen Wehrmacht 1930 -1945 say about the use of exploding bullets by German snipers?
 
Fugawi I'll have to Read the b patrone section again. I will in a little while. I know I've read about them using it in several sources.

There is no English version available, but you can buy an English supplement. A bit of a pain but a nice book with tons of colour photos so I put up with it. Haha
 
lol at least there's an English supplement. I have the seminal book on Czechoslovakian pistols, but its all in Czech. I have to use Google or ask a native Czech speaker to translate.

No rush, wondering if it was indeed true or just a myth or supposition from isolated incidents.
 
Does Die Patrone 7,9 mm der Deutschen Wehrmacht 1930 -1945 have any information on captured 7.9mm ammunition used by the Wehrmacht like Kent's does?
 
CanadianAR said:
No, it is just on german produced 7.9.

And the development of the wartime stuff. Steel case, etc etc
Click to expand...

That's too bad. I'd like to find more info (in English) on the use and production of captured Czech and Polish ammunition. On one of the forums I frequent, there was a post about Polish mauser rounds found in Normandy and brought back by an American vet.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom