Anneal or not .... ?

If you are annealing to keep necks from splitting and moderate accuracy is acceptable, the manual methods of annealing above work just fine.

But for accuracy work, forget it. You cannot manual control the "dwell" consistently enough to maintain consistent brass.

You would be better off just buying new brass and tossing fired brass after a few firings.

I found the "cheapest" way to properly anneal match quality brass, Bench Source Annealer... and it costs a bunch of $$.

YMMV.

Jerry
 
Depends on your definition of "accuracy". I'm not a bench shooter after I've got a "0" established for a given load, doing the bulk of my shooting from the off hand, sitting and prone positions.

Putting bullets through the same hole gets old with me real quick. I expect my rifles to be acceptably accurate in my hands, not from a bench rest or lead sled set up. I'm always amused by 'riflemen' I see with quality hunting rifles and scopes who ONLY shoot from the bench prior to going hunting.

New brass that hasn't been resized out of the box, trimmed and prepped is far from the ideal. Unless you are buying that premium brass where all that work has been done.
I've been shooting as described above for 60 years and I don't consider myself a good enough shot to invest in that brass - yet. But I might treat myself to some to see if it warrants the expense.

There are untold variables that affect overall accuracy, to include the human factor. Eliminating as many as we are willing definitely aids. About the only step I've avoided up to now is a concentricity gadget. I've relied on quality dies, like the RCBS 'Competition' dies I'm currently using in most of my rifle calibres.

Annealing a batch of cases from the same batch, I can tell that there is a difference in the metallurgy in some cases. They all get the same exposure regardless and I live with the variable. It's not a perfect science.
 
thanks sharps and mystic both great informative posts, and yes I own a bench source (just never got it out of the box yet like so many things i own), just take the wife out of the box is all then I am tired

and just kidding silverfox guy of course

smile it is a new year upon us

Jefferson
 
One of the advantages of propane is that the temperature of a gas flame is constant. It's instant 'on' and instant 'off'.The only possible variant is the exposure time. One second either way is not going to be that critical. It would be just as easy to over cook a case in molten lead as in a flame.

I once over did a batch of 50 new 45-70 cases by looking for the "dull cherry red colour" advised by the 'sperts. They looked sad. The old hands on the Shiloh site told me not to worry, that a couple of firings would harden up the brass. They were right. I'm still shooting that brass.

I followed that thread on lead dipping to anneal, and if it works for you, go for it! I couldn't be bothered as I spend enough time over the casting pot making bullets. I really lost interest when one poster said he wasn't concerned about water drops getting into the molten lead. I once added some sheet lead to a pot that had been cut up on a stump and obviously had gotten a little snow in one of the folds. It had been on the shop floor for a couple of weeks and I thought any snow would have melted.

I added the piece, turned my back and "POW!" The pot emptied itself over the walls and ceiling. I didn't get a single drop of lead on my skin, but my jacket back sure did. That cured me of water ANYWHERE near molten lead.
 
I anneal my 338 Lapua brass mainly because of replacement cost of Lapua brass, I also plan to anneal some of my AI brass to hopefully extend case life. I got an Anneal-Rite annealer from Enterprise Services, LLC, pretty basic but works well.

 
Pr589 said:
Here is the other annealing thread that is currently live. Speaks to using molten lead or salts.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1140943-Annealing-in-a-Casting-Pot

Jerry, have you ever tried this? Interested in your thoughts. I would think that temperature control would be much better than using an open flame and dwell time should not be much of an issue.
Click to expand...

No interest as there are many issues that have to be deal with - moisture vs molten alloy. Venting. Soldering. Time to heat up tub. Still manually operated so time in solution is up to you.

It is certainly a method some choose to use. Some even use a sand of some kind so there isn't that risk of lead.

I have done testing to prove how critical BOTH heat and time is and varies from brand, lot and number of firings. So it is something that has to be monitored and controlled. NO way I can do this manually... tried. Even made basic turntable annealer - too fast, too slow, etc.

As I said, if you are annealing to maintain consistency wrt precision shooting, do it right or don't bother at all. I have driven myself nuts when after annealing a rifle/load combo stopped shooting. Since I had done the annealing "right", I never bothered to check there.

Eventually, I started with new brass and voila, all was good. Found out that for my brass, my dwell was about 1/2 seconds too long so all the cases I had previously annealed were overdone.

Given the cost to fire brass for the sake of work hardening, it wasn't worth it to me.... several hundred brass into the garbage.

With the Bench Source, you can vary both heat and time to a couple of tenths of a second. Really helps you fine tune this task.

Most brass manf will not show you their annealing stage of brass manf.... this is top secret and for good reason.

YMMV.

Jerry
 
Very informative video! Thanks for posting it.

I was doing a verbal count as he processed the brass, using the same cadence I do when annealing .308, and it was identical to his using the tempilac - 4 seconds, give or take a nano-second.
I use a single torch, but the cases are rotating in the socket holder on the electric screwdriver, so it's same-same as the temp of a gas flame is the same, one torch or two.

I wish he had discussed whether or not the melted tempilac needs to be brushed out of the case mouths.



Silverback said:
I anneal my 338 Lapua brass mainly because of replacement cost of Lapua brass, I also plan to anneal some of my AI brass to hopefully extend case life. I got an Anneal-Rite annealer from Enterprise Services, LLC, pretty basic but works well.

Click to expand...
 
Jerry, that Bench Source automatic case neck annealing machine sure is nice but at $529.99US plus shipping it has a hell of a price tag. I even wonder if it can be still shipped out of the USA, I know that the Giraud Cartridge Case Annealer cannot and they make it very clear on the web page, "Due to ITAR regulations of automated loading equipment, this device is not available for international sale. DO NOT ASK IF YOU ARE OUTSIDE THE USA."
 
I have never had to anneal a single case and I don't think I've ever experienced a split neck.......................does annealing tighten primer pockets, and do you guys really get 5 or more loads from a single case................? ;);););)
 
Properly done, annealing is just the neck/shoulder area. Look at a military ball round to see the colouration pattern. You want to keep the hell away from the base of the casing!

The warmer your loads, the more likely case neck splits. I've got an article somewhere about case life. Without annealing, he guy got a ridiculous number of reloads out of his cases before failures. You probably wouldn't want to use them for accuracy, but they worked. Brass isn't all that expensive, but if you can extend it by annealing, why not?

When guys like Mike Venturino (who does a LOT more shooting than most - BPCR's as well as modern military) are advocates of annealing, that tells me something. He uses one of those expensive automated machines.
 
c-fbmi said:
I have never had to anneal a single case and I don't think I've ever experienced a split neck.......................does annealing tighten primer pockets, and do you guys really get 5 or more loads from a single case................? ;);););)
Click to expand...

Good point, makes me wonder.:confused:
 
Work hardened brass cracks/splits at the neck. If it hasn't happened to you, you haven't done much reloading .... :>)
 
It depends a lot on how much neck clearance you run, but in some of my rifles I need to anneal after the fourth firing or I'll get some neck splits on firing #5.
 
Silverback said:
Jerry, that Bench Source automatic case neck annealing machine sure is nice but at $529.99US plus shipping it has a hell of a price tag. I even wonder if it can be still shipped out of the USA, I know that the Giraud Cartridge Case Annealer cannot and they make it very clear on the web page, "Due to ITAR regulations of automated loading equipment, this device is not available for international sale. DO NOT ASK IF YOU ARE OUTSIDE THE USA."
Click to expand...

Bench Soure is available and I can supply. The unit IS expensive but put in perspective a great investment. And when you get it set up, it is really fast to use and so consistent.

For my competition 308 shooting, I figure each bang is around $1.50/1.75 when you include all costs.

When you are consuming somewhere in the 4000rds for practise and match shooting per year. Doesn't take long to pay back a tool that will keep your key component going strong AND helping to provide the best accuracy you can.

It was a simplier investment to justify given my experience with manual annealing. It is a tool I can use for all my shooting for the rest of my career... dirt cheap overall.

The digi scale I got a couple of years ago was a tougher call given that some lesser units were working. BUT now that I have it, what a joy.... Same thing, pricey to buy, fantastic results that builds confidence, wonderful results on target.

For me, missing is very expensive.

For those that doubt the benefits of annealing, consider that some competition shooters will use the same batch of brass over a barrel or two or more.

When I switched to PRVI brass ($60/100 and I have ALOT of brass), I beat the CR@P out of a small batch. With moderate pressure loads, I stopped when I got to 20 firings with no splits, loose primers or damaged cases. I annealed them every 3 to 4 firings. Outside neck turn every firing.

And the PRVI needed a very different schedule then the Win I had shot for years before. NO, it was not just peak temp reached.

Do not recommend using brass with that much wear and tear for anything critical but it shows what proper care can do to help brass last a long time.

Jerry
 
So I am about to try my hand at annealing. Got the Bench Source a while back, and the Omegalaq arrived today. The 700F stuff is a lightish pink color, so can be tricky to tell when it melts. Also got some 400F for the case heads, it's green and really noticeable when it melts.
Practiced on some range pickup to get the hang of it. The propane torches were fun, I had the bottles upside down and couldn't figure why they wouldn't light....:confused:
The Omegalaq works well, paint a long strip down the cases and watch the melt line move down as you increase the time in the flame. Have to go easy on the laquer though, a thick strip forms a reside on the brass that wouldn't come off in the ultrasonic cleaner.
Going to use some old Norma 6BR brass as a test. Its got about 8+ firings, so I'll shoot a couple of groups with it and then some annealed ones, see what difference it makes.
 
There are numerous ways to get temp correct, one is Markal Temp Wax sticks. Using Benchsource annealer I record the timer settings for each cartridge annealed on that cartridge's load data sheet. Tempilaq is hard to find and messy in its place use a 450 F wax stick on the next out of the flame "station" on the Benchsource (500 F softened brass too much). Think it would be fairly close to 700 F in the flame. It is the perfect temp for cartridge conversion. I have a 25 caliber on a SAUM case, that is formed from a 300 WSM. With properly adjusted 25 WSSM die I can form these cases in one step with properly annealed brass. Now with custom "Whidden Gunworks" dies case forming is easier.
 
E
Sharps '63 said:
I just went on a binge, sizing and trimming hundreds of .308 and .30-'06 casings to get ready for spring when I won't have the time. I noticed half a dozen case necks splits in an old batch of WW .308 brass, reloaded perhaps 4-5 times. Why Winchester? I've always bought factory WW ammo for hunting and accumulated the brass over the years, augmented by a couple of bulk buys at a good price.

I've long annealed my 45-70 brass and .30-'06 brass for my M1, so I know the drill and got busy on all my .308 brass as well. Monotonous and time consuming, but now I'm good to go for several more reloading sessions.

There hadn't been much case stretching in either the '06 or .308, commercial and military, but it all got trimmed to the recommended trim length and then run through my RCBS case prep machine before annealing. Next the priming chore .....

How many of you anneal your brass? I know guys who don't, simply discarding any cases with spit necks. I'm not prepared to that after I've gone through the bother of sizing and trimming hundreds of cases.
Click to expand...

Not to be picky but I anneal before before sizing so that you get proper sizing with less springback.
 
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