Jim Sullivan on the M16 in Vietnam (explains why it initially failed)

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Awesome short video of Ian from Forgotten Weapons talking to Jim Sullivan one of the original designers of the M16 explaining why the rifle was given a bad rap when it was first debuted.
[video]https://www.full30.com/video/d0b180478fa3b4bd8508e317f240f80e[/video]
 
Plus the 1:14" initial rate of twist, changed to 1:12" shortly thereafter. (not much better) There was just a whole lot of parts to get working together. They should have stayed with the M1 garand or M14 until the M16 was sorted out.
 
He mentioned sabotage. This certainly was the case. This documentary recounts the adoption of the AR15 that became M16. The guns behaved poorly in Arctic testing and Eugene Stoner flew up himself to see what was wrong. He found that the test guns had been tampered with. The US Army brass did not like the idea of buying 22 caliber rifles... at all.

 
Apparently Eugene Stoner wasn't happy with the design and wanted to revise it but he was turned down by the military, who still had high hopes for the SPIW program and didn't want what was supposed to be an interim weapon from becoming too competitive.

By the time SPIW was out of the picture, they were basically locked into the system.
 
C.J. Chivers' book "The Gun" (a really good read, by the way, though it's mostly about the AK-47) contains an in-depth analysis of M16's failure in Vietnam. His conclusion is that it was a combination of factors relating to the gun's design, Colt's cost cutting efforts, the Ordnance Corp's negligence, and politics. The U.S. Military did not have an answer to the AK-47 early in the war, so they expedited the adoption of the M16 without conducting proper R&D. The M16 was still a prototype weapon when it went into production.

The original guns that were sent to Vietnam had major corrosion issues because Colt didn't bother to chrome plate the barrel and chamber (Colt claimed that the steel alloy used in the M16 barrel was corrosion resistant and chrome plating was not necessary, which was proven to be false). Aluminium receivers were likewise corroding because Colt used low-quality anodizing. The other major problem was the change from extruded powder to ball propellant by the Ordnance Department. The new powder increased fouling and gas port pressures, greatly reducing reliability. Yet, Colt, with the knowledge and tacit approval of the Ordnance Corps, test fired guns with the old-style propellant to make them pass quality control. Then there were Colt's wildly exaggerated claims and doctored filed reports about the lethality of the 5.56mm round (i.e. ripping of arms and legs) that sound comical now but were actually one of the main reasons behind M16's adoption. But that's a different story.
 
C.J. Chivers' book "The Gun" (a really good read, by the way, though it's mostly about the AK-47) contains an in-depth analysis of M16's failure in Vietnam. His conclusion is that it was a combination of factors relating to the gun's design, Colt's cost cutting efforts, the Ordnance Corp's negligence, and politics. The U.S. Military did not have an answer to the AK-47 early in the war, so they expedited the adoption of the M16 without conducting proper R&D. The M16 was still a prototype weapon when it went into production.

The original guns that were sent to Vietnam had major corrosion issues because Colt didn't bother to chrome plate the barrel and chamber (Colt claimed that the steel alloy used in the M16 barrel was corrosion resistant and chrome plating was not necessary, which was proven to be false). Aluminium receivers were likewise corroding because Colt used low-quality anodizing. The other major problem was the change from extruded powder to ball propellant by the Ordnance Department. The new powder increased fouling and gas port pressures, greatly reducing reliability. Yet, Colt, with the knowledge and tacit approval of the Ordnance Corps, test fired guns with the old-style propellant to make them pass quality control. Then there were Colt's wildly exaggerated claims and doctored filed reports about the lethality of the 5.56mm round (i.e. ripping of arms and legs) that sound comical now but were actually one of the main reasons behind M16's adoption. But that's a different story.

I've read that book a few times and find it fascinating. Especially the chapter(s?) dealing with the early M16. A total cluster#### to put it mildly.
 
On top of everything else, the design just wasn't well suited to mass production in that era.

Though the privately adopted well built early model AR-15s performed well in the hands of various special forces, the mass produced product was garbage, and even then, they still couldn't produce nearly as many as they would have liked.

In Vietnam and elsewhere you often had local troops with M1 Carbines and other WW2 hand-me-downs pitted against Communist forces with AKs since the M-16 was too expensive and slow to produce to re-equip them in a timely fashion.

It was only many years and advances in manufacturing processes later that the AR design has become easy to mass produce with decent quality.
 
The idea that the change to ball powder had any significant effect on the failure rate of the guns is not supported by fact. The troops that were issued and trained on M16 rifles in 1964-65 switched to ball powder and had no complaints. It was only the people who were issued new rifles without training in the combat zone in 1966 along with ball powder loaded ammo who had troubles.

Plus the 1:14" initial rate of twist, changed to 1:12" shortly thereafter. (not much better) There was just a whole lot of parts to get working together. They should have stayed with the M1 garand or M14 until the M16 was sorted out.

Oh please. What effect could the rifling twist rate possibly have on a failure to extract problem? Not to mention that the change to 1:12 twist was made late in model 601 production in 1962, four years and 100,000 rifles before the failure issue arose.

He mentioned sabotage. This certainly was the case. This documentary recounts the adoption of the AR15 that became M16. The guns behaved poorly in Arctic testing and Eugene Stoner flew up himself to see what was wrong. He found that the test guns had been tampered with. The US Army brass did not like the idea of buying 22 caliber rifles... at all.

Again, this happened years and years before the failures in Vietnam came to the fore. The US Army had changed their views toward the rifle completely by 1966. And there is no reason to believe the incidents in the Arctic were intentional, they were simply the result of staff who didn't know the system taking the guns apart further than the factory deemed appropriate.
 
I've read that book a few times and find it fascinating. Especially the chapter(s?) dealing with the early M16. A total cluster#### to put it mildly.

Yep. Lack of cleaning kits. Troops in theatre told the rifles were virtually 'self cleaning' etc.

Don't forget the extreme interference from McNamara too. To this day this effing weasel refuses to be interviewed on this very subject.

What's that old cliché about politicians???
 
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