The Ultimate North American Hunting Round?
- Thread starter Ardent
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Neo, nice job on the lions.
Question though, would a 300WM have been any less effective if you had decided to use one instead of using the 30-06?
I doubt that it would have, and it would allow a little extra range if for some reason the need arose.
Question though, would a 300WM have been any less effective if you had decided to use one instead of using the 30-06?
I doubt that it would have, and it would allow a little extra range if for some reason the need arose.
Neo, nice job on the lions.
Question though, would a 300WM have been any less effective if you had decided to use one instead of using the 30-06?
I doubt that it would have, and it would allow a little extra range if for some reason the need arose.
It's a personal judgment call, but I figured that inside 40 yards any cartridge debate was largely a moot point
Initially the .300WM was going to get my vote but given its availability, versatility and cost plus all the arguments made in favour of it, I have to say the venerable .30/06.
Somethings are just right. And I don't own a rifle in .30/06 and probably never will.
Somethings are just right. And I don't own a rifle in .30/06 and probably never will.
good points Neo.
the 375 in Africa is not needed on all big game by laws in most of the countries but became the caliber.
back to NA i think this is the 30-06 that met mostly this criteria of ultimate caliber but there is a lot of different ones that can be designated too ...
speaking of bison, muskox, grizzly or polar bears there is a few of members here living among them and less that will go for hunt.
but as gunutz we love having different options ...
our Douglas mentionned the 340 weatherby magnum is of one those too. and so ...
the 375 in Africa is not needed on all big game by laws in most of the countries but became the caliber.
back to NA i think this is the 30-06 that met mostly this criteria of ultimate caliber but there is a lot of different ones that can be designated too ...
speaking of bison, muskox, grizzly or polar bears there is a few of members here living among them and less that will go for hunt.
but as gunutz we love having different options ...
our Douglas mentionned the 340 weatherby magnum is of one those too. and so ...
Montana Governor's bighorn permit sold here at the Sheep Show last night for $320,000. That should qualify it as 2015's most expensive North American hunt.....lol
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I don't know Ardent. There's a lot to be said for a half ton you're familiar with, have faith in, and just plain enjoy. Even on a high $$$ hunt. Case in point. And just to be clear, that's a 30-06 in the picture. And the lion was in-bound when the fun started
In the end, what a guy shoots generally has less of an outcome on the hunt than how he shoots ... and even more than that, how he chooses to hunt. If I personally chose to shoot game at ranges beyond what the 30-06 does well, then for sure, the 300 WM is a better choice. But what if I don't? What if hunting (for me, and with no offence to others) means savouring the experience of getting inside an animal's sensory range and stalking as close as possible? Shooting the same bullet, a 300 yard shot with a 30-06 and a 500 yard shot with a 300 WM effectively have a guy shooting the same cartridge in terms of energy on target. Honestly, I think this discussion is missing a really important dimension. I don't mean that as a criticism of this thread at all, quite the contrary. It just illustrates to me that an ideal cartridge doesn't come from just matching paper performance to various game animals, but also factoring in one's definition of "hunting".
It kinda makes me wonder what this discussion would look like if you had started it by asking what was the ideal bow, arrow and broadhead weight for North American hunting. Given the physical limits one quickly runs into in bowhunting, I think the point about hunting style and self-imposed limits would have arisen much sooner.
Interesting thread though, all the same
Fair points Neo, and you're an experienced voice in this, also know you're not afraid of greater rifles and chamberings so the take is appreciated. I too, hunt close, in fact I only ever hunt using iron sights so hopefully that illustrates my take on stalking and hunting as well. However, I recognize to succeed on certain species, realistically one must be prepared to accept a 300 yard shot or let the ram of one's dreams walk away, often in a bit of wind as occurs in the mountains. A coworker has taken several good stone rams, not one under 300 yards, and he's not a long range hunter, it's just the reality of the hunt and situation in many areas. I'm setting out to do the same, with the mountain species first, and a .300 is much more at home in a situation like that than a .30-06. This also means I'll be employing the services of optics after several unsuccessful sheep hunts with irons, I didn't take a single shot with the iron sights despite borderline opportunities being presented. It was frustrating.
I've been lucky to hunt lion as well, though I used a .375, I wouldn't have felt undergunned with a .30-06 either. Would it be my first choice? For me absolutely not, I shoot my .375 better than my .30-06 class rifles, just a comfort and familiarity thing. Many seem to point to the "moderate cartridge you shoot well", and this is extremely sound advice, I've watched plenty to terrible shooting of chamberings that are a bit much for the shooter. This is where I risk sounding cocksure, however I need to be frank. For me, it doesn't matter if the rifle is a .505 Gibbs or a .30-06, I shoot both quickly, and accurately, to the point there isn't an on target difference for me. I only discovered this recently, and had previously assumed that was true for me up to .375, then .458, and this past year found all rifles I've tried up to .505 are the same for me. I'd include a video of speed shooting them wearing a gopro, but I've done that enough and really will go over the "cocksure line" should I continue posting it.
I've never wished I had less rifle in the field, except for rifle weight. Given a .300 and a .30-06 weigh the same, at least in the rifles I choose and build, that point is moot for me, and I don't need "brakes" on my hunting via rifle choice to ensure I stay sporting. I do believe that's a bit of a misleading argument as packing a more than adequate rifle rather than merely an adequate one definitely does not make one a less sporting hunter. Now I have wished for more rifle, though every creature went down in a timely fashion, but I have never wished for less in the heat of the hunting moment. I've killed big bovids with .308, 7x57, and .375, and have watched them shot with .30-06 and others as well, and all died. However I don't choose my .375 for those moments when everything is boring, and going right, I choose it for those rare few moments when you just wished you had the right tool, a bigger tool.
We risk getting into Africa, and I know of your adventures there and they are impressive and will surpass mine, so I'll avoid throwing lion and otherwise photos back.
I'm a one rifle kind of guy, I own may these days, but I only ever use one in a given typical year. For the same reasons of extreme familiarity you touch upon in the comfortable, well known .30-06, I use just one rifle generally for extended periods on everything and I approach my furthered North American adventures with the same concept in mind. I'm looking heavily at the .300 as I'd hate to be looking at the ram of my life at the end of two weeks, with nothing but scree between us and a long stretch in the wind to make it happen. I won't shoot any better with the half-ton .30-06, nor do I need it to put the brakes on the sporting side, so really, why would I choose a handicap is my thinking. Arrival at the animal with the same bullet, with less drift error and more energy, is only fairer to the animal too, if the shooter is up to the task. All in all I find the argument of more a lot easier to support than the argument of less. Forgive the ramblings.
Indeed, though I do / have already hunt two of those, and the other two I plan to, and that is what this thread is about. What is North America's ultimate rifle, not its adequate rifle, if only choosing one.
Ardent I agree. I personally hunt with a 300wsm. My arguement about the 30/06 is it has no business being on here with the magnum calibers. Someone mentioned the 30/06 is 200fps faster then 308. Not really, most loads will be about 100fps faster. A 300 win mag is 300+ fps faster then a 30/06. Assuming equal bullets. My arguement is not stating 308 will kill everything in North america. Although it will I agree a little more power is always good to have. I have nothing to prove and go moose hunting with a 243. I just get amazed by all the folks who say 308 is for shooting paper but a 30/06 now that's a gun. You can shoot buildings down with that. It's hardly different then the 308.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Good arguments all around. Neary all my hunting at home has been big stuff topping at Grizzly and Moose, I've hunted more Bison than Whitetail for example. So that tilts my personal baseline upwards a bit, I also have chosen .375 for a long time now, in North America and abroad. For the first time I'm looking at dropping down to .300, as mentioned in the reply to Neo I stick with the using one rifle at a time ethos as I like being very familiar with them. I'd say it's about saving money but I've bought things and posted about them here that remove that argument from my valid options. I just like to keep it simple.
bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nowhere, ......just past the middle
I'd suggest the 338 WM first if dropping from a 375. I shot the 300 WM for years and while I still like it, it's been largely replaced with the 338 and 225 TSX's.
Ardent,
Anyone who has imposed tough limits on himself and walked away from multiple sheep hunts without firing a shot because of those limitations has more than earned the right to say whatever the hell he wants about cartridge selection and to know that he's correct in his opinion. Unlike most, he's earned it ... in spades!
And I'm also feeling just a tad guilty here. While I've shot about as much game with an '06 as I have with all other cartridges combined, you didn't ask what my next rifle build is going to be. If you had, I would have had to admit that I've got Ralf Martini building a .300 H&H. I just couldn't see chambering one of his rifles in such a plain Jane cartridge, no matter how much I love it. I rationalize it by telling myself that the H&H is just an '06 on steroids, not a 300 magnum
Cheers!
Everyone has a tipping point... even if they own a few $20,000 guns...
Over the past couple years I have made a concerted effort to go from a triple digit battery to under a couple dozen... I am looking for less tinkering and more shooting... I am down to the ones that I really enjoy shooting or are extremely functional for my pursuits... and I may streamline more yet.
Not to poke the bear, but Ardent if you use iron sights anyways what is the measurable difference between a 30-06 and a .300 win mag? I'm guessing it has something to do with bullet sizes and velocity but does that even make a real difference besides meat damages at the ranges which you shoot? I'm no expert, I am legitimately curious.
Now the real question is, why is 300 WSM there and .308 not?
I was once told that if a 30/30 can't kill it a .303 will. YMMV
I voted 30.06 btw
and the description of the flag waving bubba gazing down his iron sights earlier in the thread may be apt...
Now the real question is, why is 300 WSM there and .308 not?
I was once told that if a 30/30 can't kill it a .303 will. YMMV
I voted 30.06 btw
and the description of the flag waving bubba gazing down his iron sights earlier in the thread may be apt...
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Ardent,
Anyone who has imposed tough limits on himself and walked away from multiple sheep hunts without firing a shot because of those limitations has more than earned the right to say whatever the hell he wants about cartridge selection and to know that he's correct in his opinion. Unlike most, he's earned it ... in spades!
And I'm also feeling just a tad guilty here. While I've shot about as much game with an '06 as I have with all other cartridges combined, you didn't ask what my next rifle build is going to be. If you had, I would have had to admit that I've got Ralf Martini building a .300 H&H. I just couldn't see chambering one of his rifles in such a plain Jane cartridge, no matter how much I love it. I rationalize it by telling myself that the H&H is just an '06 on steroids, not a 300 magnum
Cheers!
It's easy when all you're sitting on is the price of a tag, were I outfitted I'd be much less pleased, we just switched to Grizzly on one of those too so not a total strikeout. Hey, the .300 H&H is a true classic, crossed my mind many a time! And Ralf is world class, you'll have a hell of a classy tool there- I'm envious.
Not to poke the bear, but Ardent if you use iron sights anyways what is the measurable difference between a 30-06 and a .300 win mag? I'm guessing it has something to do with bullet sizes and velocity but does that even make a real difference besides meat damages at the ranges which you shoot? I'm no expert, I am legitimately curious.
Now the real question is, why is 300 WSM there and .308 not?
I was once told that if a 30/30 can't kill it a .303 will. YMMV
I voted 30.06 btw
You missed this Conor, and .300 WSM pushes a 180r to 3,100fps, .308 manages about 500fps less- that's huge.
- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
My sentiments as well to a degree. I like to tweek a rifle to suit me, but it's the shooting enjoyment that matters. Hunting for me these days has lost some appeal due to age and the fact that the woods in my region are too full of folks on quads, dirt bikes and 4x4's to make a decent go of it. Besides, with my pension and lifestyle, I do most of my "hunting" at the supermarket anyway.
Of course, I'm always game to splat grey squirrels, coons & feral cats at every opportunity as well as problem bears when I can.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
On the same track here, then I regress and pick up a couple curiosities, realize I have little time to play with them, and repeat. Just broke down and picked up a No.1 stainless .375, and working on a Kimber .308, neither I'll likely shoot much. I've owned and sold both a couple times before, one day I'll recognize the cycle. Big hunts are good for me and purge me right down to the basics. Part of my reasoning for using one gun across the board is I like only having to developing a couple loads, and keeping ammunition ready and the rifle sighted in and on hand, when I start having different rifles for different roles that gets tough in my life. I fly most places I go and packing more than one rifle is a pain too.
I also often find myself breaking down and buying ammo at Home Hardware so that's why I like the easily available stuff, heck I hunted lion with blue box Federal, perhaps not a wise choice as I had that faulty round in the box. Anyway, it's simplification across the board for me, rifles, chamberings, as simple and most multipurpose as possible. I do a fair bit of long range target shooting, we set up our own thousand yard range with benches and target stands, and the .300 Win makes a lot of sense there for me too and serves good dual target / hunting purposes. I already have thousands of .30 cal Matchkings as a result and this is a side factor I didn't mention in the beginning, as it only applies in my particular case, but I like versatile is the moral I suppose. The .300 Win is versatile in spades for me, and all this said, I sold mine and haven't even picked a new one yet!
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
With the bullets today, can't argue, as a pure hunting round absolutely fantastic, I just like the availability of .300 Win and the variety of loads and bullets, serves good target dual purpose for me too as mentioned above.
In 1000 yard shooting the .300 WM makes perfect sense... combining it with hunting makes sense too... except, when you optimize for bench, you are moving away from the optimized hunting rig... with a little compromise, both can work. I don't shoot past 600 meters much anymore... and I like my .308's with 178 BTHP's there... but a little "ping" ain't a kill shot and you won't ever hear me say it is. I think the .300 WM is a solid choice for NA game... I've been pushing the .30/06 in this thread based on your criteria, but as I said earlier, I don't own one, so I have no emotional attachment to the cartridge... to be honest, unlike Dog Leg, I don't really own a single rifle chambered for a cartridge that would truly qualify for this thread... typical Ontarian, eh?
I mean to say, the 300 wsm basically equals the 300 wm in the sense that the .308= 30-06 does it not?
BTW I was referring to myself as the flag waving bubba, no offence intended.
I have always wanted to go full Grant Hadwin and take a mountain goat with an iron sighted mauser in a snow storm. I also hope to take a buffalo someday, but I think that would be a good excuse for a new rifle, not an excuse to hot load a 30-06.
BTW I was referring to myself as the flag waving bubba, no offence intended.
I have always wanted to go full Grant Hadwin and take a mountain goat with an iron sighted mauser in a snow storm. I also hope to take a buffalo someday, but I think that would be a good excuse for a new rifle, not an excuse to hot load a 30-06.
dgradinaru
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- British Columbia
A 200gr load can easily reach in the 2650-2700fts zone, but a .308 will max out around 2450-2500max, so there that big diffrence.
