Magazine Lee Enfield, Mk.1, 1896

[vega1]

I recently came into possession of the rifle identified in the title, and would like any info any of you guys might have.

The bluing is about 75%, the wood I would rate at about 50% because there are the usual dings and handling marks and there is some old, period cracking at the wrist where it joins the action, presumably caused by recoil. I'm being conservative here.

The ramrod is present as is the oiler.

The butt has Canadian markings, was made by London Small Arms and is so marked on the wrist metal together with the date and the L E with the number 1 under that.

The only thing missing is the bead on the front volley sight.

The bore is totally mint. All numbers match.

I am unfortunately unable to post a picture because I'm computer challenged, but I would appreciate any ball-park ideas on value as at this point I'm clueless. I know how important a picture is for valuation, but there it is.

Otherwise, I would like to know if there is anywhere I might get hold of that volley sight bead as well as where I could possible get hold of some 215 grain round nose jacketed bullets. Given that there is no windage in the sights, I'm figuring I need to load to original specs to regulate the rounds to zero windage. If there is another or better way to do this, please feel free to enlighten me. I've been strictly black powder for many years so am not that up on smokeless loading anymore.

Also, could anyone tell me the right P88 bayonet I need to accommodate the ramrod?

Lastly, there is the number 29 stamped on top of the butt plate. Anybody know what outfit that would be?

Thanks a lot.

 

[antiqueguy]

its not a ramrod its a cleaning rod its not a muzzleloader so there's nothing to ram. 215gr bullets are not a issue but black powder would be in a .30 cal bore without any lube id go with a cast bullet with some BP lube you will then need a bullet .002 bigger then the grooves you will most likely end up having to get a CBE mold and cast them yourself

 

[CMichaud]

29 is likely the rack number vice a unit identifier. Most likely an RRCI rifle I would guess but no way to sure for sure.

The Canadian markings should be M&D stamped on the butt.

I have seen several go around these parts. IMHO generally a $750-1200 rifle depending on condition and markings. For the upper end I personally would expect:

complete (less bayonet and sling)
good bore
no cracks in wood (bruising ok)
bluing showing honest wear consistent with age
matched bolt/receiver
M&D marked

Re bayonet, there was the odd Canadian pattern (1893) that were usually marked to the RRCI. 1,000 were purchased but this was pre-Boer War.

http://www.bayonetsplus.com/f_Canadian P1893 bayonet.html

I am not aware of other specific Canadian units carrying anything other than the Lee-Metford 1888 Mk I Type 2 pattern but I could easily be wrong on this.

Yes - pictures always help.

For Canadian military arms collector, specific unit markings and/or provenance are a big plus.

 

[englishman_ca]

Canada made a large purchase of Magazine Lee Enfields in 1896.

The 'ram rod' isn't a 'cleaning rod' either. They were removed from service with the introduction of the pull through cord in 1899. It is called a clearing rod, used for removing stuck cases by screwing two of them together. Very few originals survive to this day.

If your rifle still has its original rod, it was either replaced at a later date or the rifle had been taken out of service prior to 1899.

Some troops returning from the Boar War were allowed to keep their rifles. This could be one.

Need to see pics.

 

[CMichaud]

Long-Lee

Here is my rifle that was owned by Tpr Garner from Strathcona's Horse. Still has the clearing rod.

The battle honours stop the day or two before he was wounded and repatriated. Butt stamped to SH

Mid sling swivel is a period black smith replacement.

Sling is broken but original.

 

[tacfoley]

Canada made a large purchase of Magazine Lee Enfields in 1896.

The 'ram rod' isn't a 'cleaning rod' either. They were removed from service with the introduction of the pull through cord in 1899. It is called a clearing rod, used for removing stuck cases by screwing two of them together. Very few originals survive to this day.

If your rifle still has its original rod, it was either replaced at a later date or the rifle had been taken out of service prior to 1899.

Some troops returning from the Boar War were allowed to keep their rifles. This could be one.

Need to see pics.

That's BoEr.

tac

 

[sunray]

Whoever told you the troopies coming back from South Africa could keep their rifle is very confused.
The only company making 215's these days is Woodleigh in Australia. Nobody loads 'em. Tradex, forum sponsor, carries the bullets, but are out of stock. $39.50 per 50.
RRCI or RCR's. Different things.

 

[CMichaud]

Whoever told you the troopies coming back from South Africa could keep their rifle is very confused.
The only company making 215's these days is Woodleigh in Australia. Nobody loads 'em. Tradex, forum sponsor, carries the bullets, but are out of stock. $39.50 per 50.
RRCI or RCR's. Different things.

Actually I believe I read this some where as well. Will have to see if I can find the source....ok found it in Edgecombe's book where he provides details on reported losses. He states on page 115

"excluding rifles lost in South Africa, retained by Boer War veterans, or reduced to scrap or spares as a result of fair wear and tear..."

RRCI or RCR's. Different things.

Ummmm....maybe but as far as I know (and Wiki says)

The Royal Canadian Regiment

Originated 21 December 1883 as the Infantry School Corps
Redesignated 14 May 1892 as the Canadian Regiment of Infantry
Redesignated 24 May 1893 as the The Royal Regiment of Canadian Infantry
Redesignated 1 April 1899 as the The Royal Canadian Regiment of Infantry
Redesignated 1 November 1901 as The Royal Canadian Regiment

 

[CMichaud]

Actually I believe I read this some where as well. Will have to see if I can find the source....ok found it in Edgecombe's book where he provides details on reported losses. He states on page 115

"excluding rifles lost in South Africa, retained by Boer War veterans, or reduced to scrap or spares as a result of fair wear and tear..."



Ummmm....maybe but as far as I know (and Wiki says)

The Royal Canadian Regiment

Originated 21 December 1883 as the Infantry School Corps
Redesignated 14 May 1892 as the Canadian Regiment of Infantry
Redesignated 24 May 1893 as the The Royal Regiment of Canadian Infantry
Redesignated 1 April 1899 as the The Royal Canadian Regiment of Infantry
Redesignated 1 November 1901 as The Royal Canadian Regiment

In the Strathcona Boer War Diary (entry 9th March 1901) it states: A guard of honour from the 3rd Special Service Battalion, RRCI with band received us on the dock with a general salute.

Further, as per DHH Official Lineages Volume 3:

The Royal Canadian Regiment originated on 21 December 1883, when the 'Infantry School Corps' was authorized to be formed. It was redesignated: 'Canadian Regiment of Infantry' on 14 May 1892; 'The Royal Regiment of Canadian Infantry' 24 May 1893; 'The Royal Canadian Regiment of Infantry' on 1 April 1899; and 'The Royal Canadian Regiment' on 1 November 1901.

On 14 October 1899, eight companies of infantry were authorized to be formed for active service in South Africa. These companies were taken on strength of the 'Royal Canadian Regiment of Infantry' on 20 October 1899, and designated the '2nd (Special Service) Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment of Infantry' on 27 October 1899. The battalion embarked for Africa on 30 October 1899, where it fought as part of the '19th Brigade, IX Division'. The overseas battalion was disbanded on 31 December 1900.

On 5 March 1900, a 'Provisional Battalion of Infantry' was authorized to be formed for active service at Halifax, Nova Scotia.42 It was redesignated the '3rd (Special Service) Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment of Infantry' on 31 March 1900. The unit served in a garrison role at Halifax and Esquimalt, British Columbia. The battalion was disbanded on 1 October 1902.

In short, technically they were RCRI vs RRCI during the Boer War but the RRCI name was obviously still in use as detailed in the Strathcona Horse war diary. Ultimately, they were/are the RCR.

 

[cigar_man]

I have one that is in unissued condition.

I think it must have come out of stores and was sold off ???? who knows for sure.

IT only has the M&D on the butt.

I have to get better pics when the weather is good.

My Great Grandfather fought in the Boer War with the Coldstream Guards.

Back row, farthest right.
South African War medal 1899-1900 with clasps Belmont, Modder River, Dreifontein

 

[vega1]

Hey, thanks a lot for all the replies, good stuff here.

I like the pix of the two rifles. Mine is identical and has identical markings, wood and metal, as the last. cigar_man, that rifle of yours is a true prize.

As to provenance all I know is that it was in the Boer war but not in the First.

Sorry about the ramrod thing, I had run into the 'clearing' rod reference online, but as I said, too many years in bp.

Also interesting is how little I found on this model as almost everything seems to start with the Mk.3.

Cheers.

 

[englishman_ca]

Mid sling swivel is a period black smith replacement.

No sir, I believe that is a cavalry unit addition. Don't know if it was an 'official' modification, but I have seen it a number of times. I had the exact same sling swivel setup on an 1896 MLE Mk.I marked to the 1st Canadian Mounted Rifles.


Thanks Sunray, I agree with you that generally, service men were not allowed to take home their rifle, however, perhaps you should know your stuff when you suggest that somebody other than yourself is very confused. Here is a tidbit of info for your reference. David Edgcombe notes in his book Defending the Dominion (p109);-

"The Minister writing to the Governor General on the 30th November 1900, noted that there had been numerous requests from troops returning from South Africa to keep their rifles as souvenirs of the campaign. He wrote "... the weapons after so much service, are not in a very good repair.." and recommended that the men be allowed to keep their arms. This recommendation was approved."

Edgecombe did a tremendous amount of research and quotes govt documents and letters, his sources and his bibliography is listed in the back. I don't think that he was confused about this at all. It's a great book and well worth the read if you are interested in Canadian arms and military.

The rifle that I had was brought back to Canada by a returning soldier, I got it from the family.

Thanks Tac, I added BOER to my spiel chequer.

 

[CMichaud]

No sir, I believe that is a cavalry unit addition. Don't know if it was an 'official' modification, but I have seen it a number of times. I had the exact same sling swivel setup on an 1896 MLE Mk.I marked to the 1st Canadian Mounted Rifles.

Yes....I think that is what I said...a period replacement. Not official from any records I have seen but it would not surprise me if there is more than one mid swivel that need to be replaced.

The cavalry probably wore their swivels out quickly and likely was field expedient by unit farriers or tradesmen.

 

[englishman_ca]

The swivel on my rifle does not appear to be blacksmith made. The shape has been blanked out of sheet steel, suggesting to me that a press die was made for producing them in quantity

As I understand, when the rifle came back, was put up as a trophy and was not used by the family very much if at all. The swivel however, does show considerable use and wear where it swivels and pivots.

 

[vega1]

On swivels, my rifle has had the stacking swivel replaced with a regular sling swivel, matching the others on the gun. It has all the appearance of a period piece rather than something done recently. I find it interesting that this is an either/or situation as my Trapdoor Springfield has both. I wonder why the Enfield did not follow this pattern.

The clearing rod also gives every indication of being with the rifle since manufacture or at least issue.