Was thinking about this. I've heard it and certainly believe it, would be very interesting to see measurements on thrust differences between lubed cases/chambers and unlubed.
Oil in the bore, catastrophe or myth?
- Thread starter Rocket an
- Start date
Was thinking about this. I've heard it and certainly believe it, would be very interesting to see measurements on thrust differences between lubed cases/chambers and unlubed.
Rod B
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I know who he is & respect him for his military service. However in my humble opinion it is still a dumb thing to do.
My guess is they had pre-tested in a safe way using a string on the trigger. If you think about the physics it is not such a dumb thing. Initial blowby of gas will clear most of the oil out before the bullet gets there. If you look close there was a lot of smoke on the first shot with less on each successive shot. So following the logic the blowby clears most of the oil and then the hot gasses burn of some more. I also noticed they used car engine oil, much heavier oil, not gun oil. It would be interesting to chrono the shots to see what sort of velocities the bullets had. Personally I would want to test a lot more but is is clear that a little bit of oil is not a problem and one heavy oil might not be either. Not sure what the long term effects are though. I have seen different firearms shot under water before and not seen any KB's. However I think I will keep doing what I have been. Very light oil in the chamber and barrel and more on the moving parts.
A little history:
What is bolt thrust? It is the amount of backward pressure on the breech face of the bolt. If the bolt face had an area of exactly one inch, then the bolt thrust would be the same as the pressure of the cartridge. Of course cartridge heads are smaller than that.
First a little history. Once upon a time about 1914, Mauser chambered their Model 98 Sporter rifles in 280 Ross and the 11.2 Schuler. Both of these cartridges had cartridge heads larger than the 8mmMauser cartridge (or the 30-06) and problems began. They stood the German proof but failed the 33% overload of the British proof. Actions popped and bolts set back. This was before Mauser went to an improved heat treat in 1923. The Brits liked to do a little extra test with their proof. It was called the oiled-cartridge proof. In it the cartridge was dipped base first up to the base of the neck in oil. Then when the round was fired the brass couldn't grip the chamber and all of the thrust went straight back on the bolt. Tough test.
Back when bullet jackets for the 30-06 used to be cupro-nickel. severe fouling was the normal case. These bullet jackets did okay in the old 30-40 or 303, but made a mess of the barrel in the faster cartridge. To combat this, competitive shooters started greasing the bullets with MobiLube by dipping just the bullet into the grease. After several shots the chamber generally was greasy which increased bolt thrust just like an oiled proof test. On top of that the grease on the neck of the cartridge didn't compress well when the cartridge was fired which acted like a cartridge with a thick neck. Pressures went through the roof, as well as a greasy chamber transmitting the full thrust to the bolt lugs. Problems. The pressure alone popped open some actions, and the bolt thrust caused the lugs to set back in the receiver. That resulted in problem number three: excessive headspace.
I don't remember if I took pictures - but you can find lots of pics of what it looked like if you google Ruger SR9 barrel peening or something like that. They gave me a new gun - but I will not be over using oil again.
I was having key holing issues and had oil handy - so in frustration, I slobbered oil into the barrel and didn't wipe the chamber out. It peened it so bad in the first couple of clips that it would not function.
If someone does not believe me - try it - you won't like it.
Clips Clips Clips : )
I was having key holing issues and had oil handy - so in frustration, I slobbered oil into the barrel and didn't wipe the chamber out. It peened it so bad in the first couple of clips that it would not function.
If someone does not believe me - try it - you won't like it.
Clips Clips Clips : )
Talking bout physics.
I think it's not blowby but rather pressure created by the bullet leaving the chamber and entering the rifled barrel pushes out the oil. Just to force the bullet to leave the jacket pressure has to be hundreds pound (so even this pressure will start moving air and oild out of the barrel). Then it quickly builds up to few thousand and then starts dropping when the bullet is half way in the barrel. With excessive oil we have just additional resisting pressure factor needed to remove oil. It will probably not allow to build as high pressure as we expect (for the first shot only) and the speed of the first bullet will be slower than normal, but it will not create any issues as it's very small factor comparing to the huge pressure in the area behind the bullet. But again, completely dry barrel is also creating additional tension on the bullet moving through the rifling of the barrel.
For those who had "issues" with over-lubing - how do we know guns died because of extralubing and not because of poor QC?
Funny it wrecked the slide too.
So do you advise that I can shoot my new SR9 with lots of oil in it?
I'll need someone to hold my sign. :: ))
Lets read the Instruction Manual for our Rugers - Both my P345 and SR9 have WARNINGS like this " Improper lubrication destroys guns." Other manufacturers say things like " Remember to remove all lubricant from the chamber and bore" or similar warnings.
Maybe someone has some instruction manuals for their rifles? If they do give warnings, please to post them here for us - we should know.
I think that reloading manuals say similar things - anyone?
I have never seen over oiling damage a firearm. I would have so much oil on my FN in a tropical or wet environment that you could actually smell the oil and I would get oil stains on my gear. The only time I would run my rifle dry was in extreme cold. I have yet to see oil that after firing a firearm in extreme cold that does not thicken. As the firearm cools moisture is absorbed in the oil. With the oil getting thicker and absorbing moisture it causes stoppages or freezing the action to a point it will not work.
NRA 2700 competitors always joke that when shooting a 1911 if the oil is not dripping off your elbow, the pistol is not adequately lubricated. I have also heard the " attributed to John Browning" instruction for oiling. 1. Hold pistol in hand. 2. Insert into barrel of oil. 3. Agitate. 4. Remove from oil, shake three times. 5. Gun is now adequately oiled.
redshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
Larry!!! I want to see those primers!...I think my whole issue with this is the over the top example of too much lube isn't a bad thing is just outright unsafe. Just type fail into YouTube...people don't need help coming up with stupid ideas.
A bore full of oil has nothing to do with lubing your gun. Here's where I'm taking exception to this stunt, I'm positive lube in the chamber will alter how force is applied to your slide/bolt face. I'm also sure that a bore full of oil will cause at least a moderate increase in pressure. I'm not shy about loading at the edge in a bolt gun...I'm doing the QC. The more I think about this, I realize that I just don't do max loads in any autoloader I own(ed).
damn close, but not full speed.
What can we conclude with these videos...shooting a gun under water is like trying to slice bread with a piece of 2x4. A barrel full of oil won't make Larry's gun blow up. It's also safe to say the firearms he was shooting will likely tolerate over lubing by accident. Doing this once, only proves you can do it once, 100 times, now I'm impressed.
I just can't get by the gut feeling that to start the day with a greased/oiled chamber every shooting session would be like mixing in a few rounds a grain or two over max every time you shoot...might get away with it, might not...Anyone know Larry? Ask him if he'd do that with a full mag and those two guns every time he shoots for a month or two...I'm sure we can get a collection together to get him a box of disposable coveralls (with the hood) and a facemask.
let's not forget why we grease/oil things...to keep them apart and moving freely under huge forces.
Just to be clear, I'm less bothered by the pistol then the rifle for obvious reasons...
A bore full of oil has nothing to do with lubing your gun. Here's where I'm taking exception to this stunt, I'm positive lube in the chamber will alter how force is applied to your slide/bolt face. I'm also sure that a bore full of oil will cause at least a moderate increase in pressure. I'm not shy about loading at the edge in a bolt gun...I'm doing the QC. The more I think about this, I realize that I just don't do max loads in any autoloader I own(ed).
damn close, but not full speed.What can we conclude with these videos...shooting a gun under water is like trying to slice bread with a piece of 2x4. A barrel full of oil won't make Larry's gun blow up. It's also safe to say the firearms he was shooting will likely tolerate over lubing by accident. Doing this once, only proves you can do it once, 100 times, now I'm impressed.
I just can't get by the gut feeling that to start the day with a greased/oiled chamber every shooting session would be like mixing in a few rounds a grain or two over max every time you shoot...might get away with it, might not...Anyone know Larry? Ask him if he'd do that with a full mag and those two guns every time he shoots for a month or two...I'm sure we can get a collection together to get him a box of disposable coveralls (with the hood) and a facemask.
let's not forget why we grease/oil things...to keep them apart and moving freely under huge forces.
Just to be clear, I'm less bothered by the pistol then the rifle for obvious reasons...
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I remember coming out of turrets after working the C5 like a madman. (1919 to everyone else)
I used to do the pre-fire checks personally on all of them going to the range.
In the turret I just drowned each one.
They always worked.
By the time I got out, I was soaked in gun oil so that my coveralls used to be soaked from the chest down.
It would take up to two weeks for the oil to leach out of my boot leather.
Given a properly done pre-fire check, a bottle of gun oil and a screw driver, I would probably still take a C5 over a C6 today.
I am trying to remember if it was the Breda 30 or 37.
It fed from a strip and pre-lubed the ammo before feeding it into the chamber?
I should expect that most rifles should be built with tolerances in mind to accept the pressure levels any lube in barrel presents.
I used to do the pre-fire checks personally on all of them going to the range.
In the turret I just drowned each one.
They always worked.
By the time I got out, I was soaked in gun oil so that my coveralls used to be soaked from the chest down.
It would take up to two weeks for the oil to leach out of my boot leather.
Given a properly done pre-fire check, a bottle of gun oil and a screw driver, I would probably still take a C5 over a C6 today.
I am trying to remember if it was the Breda 30 or 37.
It fed from a strip and pre-lubed the ammo before feeding it into the chamber?
I should expect that most rifles should be built with tolerances in mind to accept the pressure levels any lube in barrel presents.
redshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
I've seen a C5/1919 glowing orange from a few too many rounds being fired in one burst...they cooled it by dumping oil on it which promptly burst into flame..considering the age of the design I'd say that fits firmly into over-engineered. I'll agree though it could be accounted for, the fluted chamber of a G3 for example.
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Larry!!! I want to see those primers!...I think my whole issue with this is the over the top example of too much lube isn't a bad thing is just outright unsafe. Just type fail into YouTube...people don't need help coming up with stupid ideas.
A bore full of oil has nothing to do with lubing your gun. Here's where I'm taking exception to this stunt, I'm positive lube in the chamber will alter how force is applied to your slide/bolt face. I'm also sure that a bore full of oil will cause at least a moderate increase in pressure. I'm not shy about loading at the edge in a bolt gun...I'm doing the QC. The more I think about this, I realize that I just don't do max loads in any autoloader I own(ed).
What can we conclude with these videos...shooting a gun under water is like trying to slice bread with a piece of 2x4. A barrel full of oil won't make Larry's gun blow up. It's also safe to say the firearms he was shooting will likely tolerate over lubing by accident. Doing this once, only proves you can do it once, 100 times, now I'm impressed.
I just can't get by the gut feeling that to start the day with a greased/oiled chamber every shooting session would be like mixing in a few rounds a grain or two over max every time you shoot...might get away with it, might not...Anyone know Larry? Ask him if he'd do that with a full mag and those two guns every time he shoots for a month or two...I'm sure we can get a collection together to get him a box of disposable coveralls (with the hood) and a facemask.
let's not forget why we grease/oil things...to keep them apart and moving freely under huge forces.
Just to be clear, I'm less bothered by the pistol then the rifle for obvious reasons...
I think you are missing the point. They were not saying to fill your gun with oil every time you shoot and if you notice they did let the oil drain from the barrel. The point they were trying to make was that over-oiling is not as bad as we have been led to believe. I know a number of guys who shoot IPSIC who say make sure the gun is dripping oil as it will be more reliable.
Been there, done that.
The eyebrows grew back eventually,,,.
Dropping one in a snow bank is technically not an improvement either, but sure was entertaining.
It sure is funny until you become the range officer.
Matter a fact, seen them go near transaparent!
redshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
You know I'm not in the mood today to be polite...so I'll keep it short.
Here's a warning from a Sig manual.
8. Do not oil cartridges, and be sure to wipe the chamber clean of any oil or preservative
before commencing to shoot. Oil interferes with the friction between cartridge case and
chamber wall that is necessary for safe functioning, and subjects the firearm to stress
similar to that imposed by excessive pressure.
I'm sure he doesn't once say be careful you don't get some of that excess lube in the chamber. Also it would not be unreasonable to assume that what many people will get from this is it's fine to lube the entire gun excessively, including the bore and chamber.
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