Thank goodness, BC is culling wolves

[hoytcanon]

For someone with "no opinion on it", you have better than 10% of the posts in this thread. Albeit, most of those are typical of what you generally type....

So says the guy who spends more time criticizing other posters than offering a legitimate post on the subject at hand.

However, regardless, what would you have us do in our situation here, specifically, where there is a 5 year aerial wolf cull currently underway. Please offer your opinion, as I am genuinely curious as to how you think the current situation should be managed.

Pretty simple... shoot some wolves, don't much care how you do it... don't remember saying not to do it... I just don't think that it will be overly effective... and it is at best a short term, stop gap ineffective remedy.

Good reason to go hunting.

 

[45ACPKING]

This topic is alive n well offline too.
We were all just sittin around the office havin a coffee and talkin about this, we're all hunters. It was agreed that this explosion in wolf populations has pretty much come on the backs of massive LNG exploration and equally massive clear cutting to attempt to rid us of the mountain pine beetle. Wolves are just being wolves , but our province and it's corporate masters have fuggered up "beautiful british columbia" so bad that our ungulates are paying the price. It is a human caused problem that must be dealt with. Ousting this BC liberal party will be a good first step. A wolf cull is not the only culling needed in this province.

 

[Chuckbuster]

back to you.

you are professing your ethic not mine nor others why yours will be better?
predator control is working if it is made at a certain level and continuously this is what the studies said, seems you are trying to find something else.

up to the time a wolf or a pack will take care of your pet you dont mind but another story and you will be for ...

i ve seen wolves taking caribous and they are fast but when the shortage of food come they will move and maybe met a cattle ranch what will happen for those poor guys raising it, will you help them?

i am myself for a continuous predators control ( wolf, coyote, couguar, bears) and wider and more generous open seasons it will take time but it will come.

Phil

You misunderstand my reference in that it is about the removal of specific problem animals; if a wolf/coyote/cougar/bear attacks people or is going around gobbling up pets and domestic animals, well then it/they should be removed. In all of the cougar attacks and what not that have been in the news recently, the problem animal is targeted, not the entire population.

 

[Chuckbuster]

The issue with your statements is that wolves are not being REMOVED they are being REDUCED. Wolves are overpopulated and because many factors their population is exploding and they need to be brought into line. The pine beetle devastation made super highways for wolves and they are taking advantage and jeopardizing many animal populations in BC, not just the caribou (moose are another example).
Reducing the wolf population is not the solution but it is PART of the solution. Habitat rebuilding takes time and until that happens wolves have to be managed. Just because you like seeing wolves doesn't mean we don't need to manage them. There are only two ways to manage them effectively. Shooting them from helicopters or the more effective way (and least palatable to the general populous) is poisoning them.
And personally, I would much rather see caribou than wolves any day of the week.

True, removed and reduced are two different terms. But, when it comes to wolf management, what many people (and no, I'm not singling out anybody here) ardently in favour of control would find most desirable is indeed removal; trust me, I've spoken to enough people over the years who have expressed exactly that sentiment! (and I probably had that in mind when I typed that)

Something we need to understand is that a cull may not produce the desired results, long term, or even short term unless specific other factors are controlled for as well. It is known that whether removing or reducing the population of an apex predator, there will be an ecological cascade, or butterfly effect, as well as replacement by competing and or mid level predators. The effects of these consequences have not been very well studied, so we really don't know how much the removal or reduction of apex predators affects long term ecosystem viability. And, from what I have read thus far in the paper provided by another member, I note that BC lags behind other jurisdictions in terms of a scientific approach to wolf management.

Alas! Say what you will, but at least I am consistent...I disagree with the science behind Ontario's moose management strategy, and I disagree with the science here! Oh, and I should ask, were you successful at all this past season?

 

[Chuckbuster]

A

Close.

Man messes up habitat which has the unintended result of aiding the wolves to become even more efficient. Wolf population grows and ungulate populations suffer due to man.

Short term solution- knock down wolf numbers to help what remains of the caribou survive.

Long term solution- restore/improve habitat for the caribou to survive and regain a balanced ecosystem


It's pretty simple, actually.

My understanding is that there is nothing genetically distinct about mountain caribou that makes them unique, apart from their exact location. From what I have been reading, some of the mountain caribou populations in question are quite small; something like 20 animals if memory serves, and part of the goal is to preserve such small isolated populations. So what we have are genetically bottlenecked groups with no gene flow. It may even be likely that they have passed the extinction threshold for their particular herds, and no matter what is done, they will fail and disappear. Reducing predation will have no effect if this is the case. But, since the cull is proceeding, we will have to wait and see what the outcome for the various populations actually is. Unfortunately, ecology and population biology often have a way of confounding or surprising planners. We'll have to compare notes in 2020.

 

[H4831]

This topic is alive n well offline too.
We were all just sittin around the office havin a coffee and talkin about this, we're all hunters. It was agreed that this explosion in wolf populations has pretty much come on the backs of massive LNG exploration and equally massive clear cutting to attempt to rid us of the mountain pine beetle. Wolves are just being wolves , but our province and it's corporate masters have fuggered up "beautiful british columbia" so bad that our ungulates are paying the price. It is a human caused problem that must be dealt with. Ousting this BC liberal party will be a good first step. A wolf cull is not the only culling needed in this province.

If you knew anything about the history of BC, you would know that in the build up of the huge wolf population prior to the massive poisoning program of the 1950s, LNG development and clear cut logging were completely unknown. Further, there were almost no roads or trails in the entire north central areas of BC.
Our wolves do not need trails or clear cuts, to enable them to find and kill game.

 

[RRCo.]

Are we seeing the kind of recreational killing by wolves of large numbers of ungulates that are left unconsumed that has been seen in Yellowstone since wolves were re-introduced there?

 

[MiG25]

Too little, too late. For the southern herds to have any chance; wolves, cougars, and bears will need to be cleared out and helicopters and snowmobiles kept out off the back country. It ain't going to happen.

 

[H4831]

True, removed and reduced are two different terms. But, when it comes to wolf management, what many people (and no, I'm not singling out anybody here) ardently in favour of control would find most desirable is indeed removal; trust me, I've spoken to enough people over the years who have expressed exactly that sentiment! (and I probably had that in mind when I typed that)

Something we need to understand is that a cull may not produce the desired results, long term, or even short term unless specific other factors are controlled for as well. It is known that whether removing or reducing the population of an apex predator, there will be an ecological cascade, or butterfly effect, as well as replacement by competing and or mid level predators. The effects of these consequences have not been very well studied, so we really don't know how much the removal or reduction of apex predators affects long term ecosystem viability. And, from what I have read thus far in the paper provided by another member, I note that BC lags behind other jurisdictions in terms of a scientific approach to wolf management.

Alas! Say what you will, but at least I am consistent...I disagree with the science behind Ontario's moose management strategy, and I disagree with the science here! Oh, and I should ask, were you successful at all this past season?

If, by the word "removed," you are referring to extinction, that is not and never was a consideration with BC wolves. Even with the massive amounts of poison used in the 1950s, there was absolutely no attempt at extinction of the wolves. It was aimed reducing the wolf population where they were abnormally hard on moose and ranchers cattle, or smaller bands of caribou or goats faced possible extinction from the wolves.
Also, it should be noted that after the years of extensive poisoning, a healthy population of wolves remained in BC.

 

[Chuckbuster]

If, by the word "removed," you are referring to extinction, that is not and never was a consideration with BC wolves. Even with the massive amounts of poison used in the 1950s, there was absolutely no attempt at extinction of the wolves. It was aimed reducing the wolf population where they were abnormally hard on moose and ranchers cattle, or smaller bands of caribou or goats faced possible extinction from the wolves.
Also, it should be noted that after the years of extensive poisoning, a healthy population of wolves remained in BC.

I think I may have had two meanings in mind--removal meaning eliminating animals by one means or another, and then at the back of my mind, eradication/elimination of entire populations. But, regardless, I know the debate/discussion is heated and hackles are rising on some, so I will take the opportunity to thank you for being civil.

 

[medvedqc]

You misunderstand my reference in that it is about the removal of specific problem animals; if a wolf/coyote/cougar/bear attacks people or is going around gobbling up pets and domestic animals, well then it/they should be removed. In all of the cougar attacks and what not that have been in the news recently, the problem animal is targeted, not the entire population.

predators control as we are speaking cant be focused on one specific kind and on a specific problem.

predator control can work if done continuously and if the eco system is monitored.

wolves will hammer the easy prey and domestic cattle are easy. if any hunter that want to hunt in the fall was taking a wolf and a bear each year then we will not be here talking about that.

if any hunter was aware of what a bear can do in the spring on calves.

 

[hawk-i]

It seems the wolves are also killing the black bears. As the wolf population continues to increase around here the bear population seems to be decreasing as well.

 

[Chuckbuster]

predators control as we are speaking cant be focused on one specific kind and on a specific problem.

predator control can work if done continuously and if the eco system is monitored.

wolves will hammer the easy prey and domestic cattle are easy. if any hunter that want to hunt in the fall was taking a wolf and a bear each year then we will not be here talking about that.

if any hunter was aware of what a bear can do in the spring on calves.

Yes, predators are opportunistic, there is no doubt about that. Like us, they take the path of least resistance and lowest risk.

 

[Crowca2]

Will the hoof footed not survive as they did before the humans get involved.Wolf up Deer down,Deer down Wolf down , Wolf down Deer up?

 

[Waterfowler]

Just to add something else to this thread......do you see similarities between what the wolves are doing in BC and what the coyotes are doing in Ontario??

I am referring to the obvious fast decline in whitetails and high population of coyotes?

 

[Zanelike]

You can't wolf-proof a ditch is what I was saying. Roads that are deactivated are limiting access for hunting predators too, and improving predators ease of getting around. In areas that are Limited Entry for game animals, what's the point of, and who benefits from limiting access and atv use? The guides, that's who. Except now that the wolves are eating their sales items, something might be done to help out the game animals as the BC gov is in their back pocket.

And Sask coyotes...with the amount of coyotes and the past 2 winters being very harsh, whitetail populations are very low. I'd say 10-20 percent of what there was 3 years ago in my area. And coyote numbers are very high. Every bush pushed this year resulted in coyotes coming out, usually several. They should be open for everybody to shoot too, not just residents. The whitetail populations should come back, but it wouldn't hurt to have less coyotes around to help it.

The issue is you don't seem to understand WHY roads are deactivated. If the logging companies are no longer logging a certain area they no longer need the roads into that area therefore they have to deactivated them and then it becomes a 'use at your own risk'. Otherwise they are required to maintain those roads. You can still easily access those roads with atv's still or on foot. Some people don't use trucks to hunt, like myself. Now geologically sensitive areas are restricted to all motor vehicle access because they are trying to protect the HABITAT which is needed for species such as woodland caribou and mountain sheep. This has nothing to do with benefitting the outfitters. Any area an outfitter can access I can access.

And your second statement on coyotes is the EXACT SAME REASON we are removing the WOLVES. Both on canis species just one is a lot larger and more voracious.

 

[RRCo.]

Will the hoof footed not survive as they did before the humans get involved.Wolf up Deer down,Deer down Wolf down , Wolf down Deer up?

That's how they survived, or didn't. The aboriginal populations in some areas used to cycle the same way I've read. Sometimes they would show up at the HBC post starving to death when game was very hard to find.

 

[Bland]

Population dynamics are a complex subject. As with anything in nature there are wheels within wheels and the ripple effect is impossible to predict when you mess with one of the wheels. We know prey #'s are down and predator #'s are up. Why? There is not one answer to this dilemma. A wolf cull is appropriate to give a chance for the prey #'s to rebound IMO. What are the factors that have caused this current dilemma? Pine beetle devastation, ticks, warm winters, low snow pack, high snow pack, low water in our creeks (last year was brutal in my part of Skeena drainage) the list goes on and on. Clear cuts should help ungulates as it provides browse, unfortunately it also causes nice berry crops which promotes the bears. Last season drought conditions in our area which decimated the berry crop after a bumper crop the year before. Lots of twins and triplets for the black bears this spring due to high fecundity rate from 2013. No berries (huckleberry plants burned red and zero berries in previously excellent areas for eg) this year, bears were eating clover instead of huckleberries for e.g. From my bush walks at the beginning of this November after a snow fall it was impossible to go anywhere without stepping on wolf tracks. No moose tracks to be seen. Not good. Just one example of a multi faceted problem. There is not one answer to this problem. Wolf cull should help but only in the short term. Other factors may change which will stimulate ungulate #'s, with wolf #'s temporarily down this will be a positive. Our area was only 20% pine but east of us towards PG it is the other way round. Habitat devastation. Little cover for large animals during poor weather for one example. Many factors at play. To my mind black bears are as big an issue as wolves right now at keeping moose down. Our little herd of woodland caribou in the Telkwa Pass area would have disappeared decades ago without gov. intervention. A wolf cull really changes nothing for them. My understanding of wolf population dynamics is limited but they respond to hunting pressure by having more pups. Correct me if I am wrong. So with this in mind a wolf cull is a temporary band-aid at best.