- Location
- The Nation ON
Absolutely thats how gun control works. The BATF is a corrupt agency and has been since the 1970's. They are infamous for there actions at Waco and Ruby Ridge. They were also involved in Fast and Furious.
ATF Trying To Ban AR-15 Ammo
- Thread starter Mumbles Marble Mouth
- Start date
Absolutely thats how gun control works. The BATF is a corrupt agency and has been since the 1970's. They are infamous for there actions at Waco and Ruby Ridge. They were also involved in Fast and Furious.
No, I would rather they not. The RCMP seems to often take after the ATF's lead in interpretation and regulation, and in fact if you look Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and other Weapons, Components and Parts of Weapons, Accessories, Cartridge Magazines, Ammunition and Projectiles as Prohibited or Restricted, you will find at the very bottom:
Note the very specific wording does not exempt ammunition that is discharged in commonly available rifles as well as commonly available hand guns.
Grouping cartridges into 'handgun' and 'rifle' calibres is in many ways arbitrary within the category of centerfire metallic cartridges.
By defining the various AR-15 pistols (and it looks like there's getting to be a lot of them in the states thanks to their SBR laws), they can make the argument that they are a class of commonly available handgun (as marketed by the manufacturers themselves). Ergo, SS109/M855 is ALSO a handgun cartridge (as well as a rifle one) AND it is quite definitely designed to penetrate armour - SS109 is a SAP design with a hardened penetrator core.
The best case for us is for the BATF to back off quietly. Even if they fail in the US, if this issue raises enough of a fuss, the RCMP may well try the same interpretation in Canada (our only plausible argument is that AR-15 pistols are still quite uncommon by most definitions since we can get those shorty carbines)
As for why the RCMP would take that stance, the first is that it further reduces ammunition supply. If you think of it as in just the PMC greentips and American Eagle XM855 (currently in stock at The Ammo Source with a description that lists XM855-style penetrator as the bullet type), that's not a big deal, but it also shuts the door on potentially any future 5.56 milsurp ammo other than the odd lot of 55gr ball.
Although in the end, it might be completely for nought. The photos of the Moncton shooter seem to show him carrying an M14 and an AR. If it turns out that RCMP vests stopped the .308 ball or hunting rounds but that the shooter used green tips that penetrated the police vests, then the RCMP would frame it as an officer safety issue and have public opinion behind them.
I'm cautiously optimistic that the fact we haven't heard anything about it means that this was not the case (either because he had some other ammo in the AR or because the damage was done by the .308)
Media report that Moncton shooter was carrying a M305 and a Mossberg shotgun. No mention of an AR that I can find.
Last edited:
It's all pretty terribly worded. What is armor piercing? How thick of armor? Soft body armor? Steel? What grade of steel? At what distance?
If they are concerned about "pistol" rounds on their Kevlar armor it's a joke to think itl stop 5.56 lead any easier than 5.56 green tip.
If they are concerned about "pistol" rounds on their Kevlar armor it's a joke to think itl stop 5.56 lead any easier than 5.56 green tip.
It has to do with interpreting the already existing provision which doesn't set out penetration requirements. I'm not sure what the US regulations are, but here's the Canadian one:
You can't get around the SS109/M855/Greentip issue as the manufacturer's own specifications are that they are semi-armour piercing rounds with a hardened steel penetrator. That's not in contention at all. Since it previously only met the second condition, but not the first, availability hasn't been a problem.
The part that's being debated is the first section capable of being discharged from a commonly available semi-automatic handgun or revolver. The ATF is arguing that the AR-15 pistols fulfill the condition of being a a commonly available semi-automatic handgun or whatever the equivalent US clause is, meaning that the ammo in question now meets both conditions required for it to be banned from civilian sale.
Last edited:
That would require all .223 and 5.56 to be banned because no normal armor will stop them.
redshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
No, because the vast majority were never designed/manufactured/altered for that purpose. We also don't have the SBR rules that they do in the US so there are next to no "handguns" that fire 223.
Just a reminder there are lurkers...the fact that a spear would go through soft armour at a slight trot would be lost on them. Better to down play that aspect of rifle rounds otherwise those poor souls who purchased a Mossberg 464 SPX will find the evil eye turned their way.
There are other things that relate to this discussion...better to let it die.
Last edited:
- Location
- Georgetown Ontario
A 180grain .303 softpoint will do that and more! Although you won't find any .303 handguns but that's not the point. As pointed out standard 55grain FMJ will also penetrate soft body armour worn by Police. The SS109 round is designed as a improved penetration round not a AP round, they have M995 for that purpose. If they want to ban .223/5.56 ammo that will penetrate Police body armour because it can now be fired out of a pistol they will have to ban most on the market if not all!
No, the incidental ability to penetrate armour isn't the defining feature. It's the deliberate design of the cartridge to do so. Just like we can get LAR-15 10 round mags because they are deliberately designed as pistol mags but not 10 round PMAGs.
As redshooter says, this is contingent on whether AR pistols can be considered a commonly available semi-automatic handgun in Canada... they aren't really because we don't have the US SBR laws to sidestep, but they could be. The law doesn't come with a grandfather clause for designs that started out as rifles.
This Rifle/Pistol grey area has been to our benefit in one case (LAR mags), but also to our detriment in others (the various 10/22 and .22 AR mags that have to be pinned at 10 rounds now because they are also marketed for pistol configurations like the 10/22 Charger and Colt M4-22/S&W M&P 15-22/HK 416-22) even though some of those configurations are so far only available in the states.
Isn't pmc Korean made?
Dorian Gray
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
7N6 5.45x39 ammo. And yes, the ATF was successful in banning the importation of it. That happened last year.
MAC's video is a good summation of what's going on with the M855 situation to the south:
It has been reported that Obama issued an Executive Order, effectively banning sales of the American 62gr steel penetrator since his attempts at imposing new controls on the firearms themselves ended in failure. Thus, the BATFE have been issued new orders. I haven't had the time to verify if any of this is correct, so.... But, big picture? I'm thinking minimal impact on Canadian shooters as most of the 62gr stuff on our shelves originate in Asia, Russia, and/or eastern Europe. if true, expect a massive pushback by American shooters and their gun lobby.
From the NSSF:
Contact ATF:
Oppose 5.56 M855 Ball Ammunition Ban
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has announced it is seeking to ban commonplace 5.56 M855 ball ammunition as "armor piercing ammunition." ATF is seeking public comment on the proposal, so all industry employees, target shooters and gun owners should contact ATF to oppose this unnecessary ban, which is truly a solution in search of a problem and that raises serious questions about executive agency attitude and overreach. Stopped cold on Capitol Hill, this action appears to be the Obama administration's attempt to pursue gun control by other means.
Commonly available "green tip" M855 and SS109 rifle ammunition that is primarily intended and regularly used for "sporting purposes," like target shooting, has been exempt from federal law banning armor piercing ammunition for decades. There is no question that the steel-tip, lead core 5.56 ball ammo has been in wide use by law abiding American citizens for sporting purposes.
It is with the increasing prevalence of handgun versions of rifle platforms, that ATF now apparently sees an opening to now ban the widely used M855 and SS109 ammunition.
It would be legally permissible to continue to possess and use so-defined "armor piercing" ammunition currently possessed. However, rescinding the decades-old exemption will have a major impact. It will become illegal to manufacture, import, distribute or sell at retail this very popular rifle target ammunition.
ATF's proposed "framework" for applying the "sporting purpose" exemption test rewrites the law passed by Congress to disregard the manufacturer's intention that a projectile or cartridge is "primarily intended for a supporting purpose." ATF inappropriately places the focus on how criminals might misuse sporting ammunition in a handgun.
Just as disturbing, language used by ATF in its long white paper refers to criminals as a "consumer group." The implication that the industry purposely sells firearms and ammunition to criminals is misleading and echoes the shopworn charges of the gun control lobby.
Manufacturers will face serious limitations in their ability to develop and market alternative ammunition in other popular hunting rounds, such as .308 rifle hunting ammunition, if ATF's so-called "framework" is adopted. This will have a detrimental effect on hunting nationwide, especially in California where a total ban on traditional ammunition for hunting is being phased in now.
ATF is soliciting comments on how it can best implement withdrawal of this exemption while "minimizing disruption to the ammunition and firearm industry and maximizing officer safety". Under the proposed framework, 30-06 M2AP cartridges would continue to be exempt because there are no multi-shot handguns generally available that accept such ammunition.
The proposal is useless since standard lead-only 5.56 ammunition is "armor piercing" simply due to the round's velocity. Rifles in this caliber, or any caliber for that matter, are rarely used in crimes.
ATF will accept comments on this proposal until March 16, 2015. Email or write ATF today and tell them you oppose this unnecessary, misguided and damaging ban on commonly used ammunition for America's most popular sporting rifles.
Email: APAComments@atf.gov
Fax: (202) 648-9741.
Mail: Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226: ATTN: AP Ammo Comments.
Contact ATF:
Oppose 5.56 M855 Ball Ammunition Ban
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has announced it is seeking to ban commonplace 5.56 M855 ball ammunition as "armor piercing ammunition." ATF is seeking public comment on the proposal, so all industry employees, target shooters and gun owners should contact ATF to oppose this unnecessary ban, which is truly a solution in search of a problem and that raises serious questions about executive agency attitude and overreach. Stopped cold on Capitol Hill, this action appears to be the Obama administration's attempt to pursue gun control by other means.
Commonly available "green tip" M855 and SS109 rifle ammunition that is primarily intended and regularly used for "sporting purposes," like target shooting, has been exempt from federal law banning armor piercing ammunition for decades. There is no question that the steel-tip, lead core 5.56 ball ammo has been in wide use by law abiding American citizens for sporting purposes.
It is with the increasing prevalence of handgun versions of rifle platforms, that ATF now apparently sees an opening to now ban the widely used M855 and SS109 ammunition.
It would be legally permissible to continue to possess and use so-defined "armor piercing" ammunition currently possessed. However, rescinding the decades-old exemption will have a major impact. It will become illegal to manufacture, import, distribute or sell at retail this very popular rifle target ammunition.
ATF's proposed "framework" for applying the "sporting purpose" exemption test rewrites the law passed by Congress to disregard the manufacturer's intention that a projectile or cartridge is "primarily intended for a supporting purpose." ATF inappropriately places the focus on how criminals might misuse sporting ammunition in a handgun.
Just as disturbing, language used by ATF in its long white paper refers to criminals as a "consumer group." The implication that the industry purposely sells firearms and ammunition to criminals is misleading and echoes the shopworn charges of the gun control lobby.
Manufacturers will face serious limitations in their ability to develop and market alternative ammunition in other popular hunting rounds, such as .308 rifle hunting ammunition, if ATF's so-called "framework" is adopted. This will have a detrimental effect on hunting nationwide, especially in California where a total ban on traditional ammunition for hunting is being phased in now.
ATF is soliciting comments on how it can best implement withdrawal of this exemption while "minimizing disruption to the ammunition and firearm industry and maximizing officer safety". Under the proposed framework, 30-06 M2AP cartridges would continue to be exempt because there are no multi-shot handguns generally available that accept such ammunition.
The proposal is useless since standard lead-only 5.56 ammunition is "armor piercing" simply due to the round's velocity. Rifles in this caliber, or any caliber for that matter, are rarely used in crimes.
ATF will accept comments on this proposal until March 16, 2015. Email or write ATF today and tell them you oppose this unnecessary, misguided and damaging ban on commonly used ammunition for America's most popular sporting rifles.
Email: APAComments@atf.gov
Fax: (202) 648-9741.
Mail: Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226: ATTN: AP Ammo Comments.
Last edited:
I'm saying if logic was involved. It's no more dangerous to anyone then normal lead ammo coming from a gun, other then super specific instances that haven't happened.
Now the 10/22 crap here, until I see official notice saying the mags are to be pinned, it's just speculation.
Newfie_1986
CGN Regular
- Location
- St. John's
I could see an impact. Russian and European ammo is irrelevant they don't make XM855. I am not a big fan of shooting steel case ammo in my ar15s. The way I see it, it could be good or bad for Canadian shooters. Lets say there is an out and out ban on 855 ammo in the US, but they still allow surplus to be exported. Good for us now the market has gotten a lot smaller for the xm855 and we could see it cheaper due to lower demand. XM 193 of course would go up due to a higher demand in the US. Option 2 the US bans 855 and prohibits its export, all those shooters will have to switch to new ammo, due to higher demand on other .223 style ammo we see increased prices across the board !
