Should a No4 Lee Enfield be stored with the king screw loosened?

[bigedp51]

I read over on milsurps once in a post by PL. I para phrase here. "There are only two kinds of foreends. Those that are warped, and those are that are not warped.... YET."

So yes, doing this may help prolong the life of the rifle, but one day you will go to shoot that rifle and you will find that the bedding is shot (pardon the pun). I am in the process of replacing a foreend that had this happen. All the bedding around the action is spot on, but the tip of the stock has pulled away from the barrel. I think I may eventually cut down the foreend to do a pseudo No5, or to replace a beat up sportered rifle stock.

Your draws area is "NOT" spot on, you need more shimming to "tighten up the draws, and the King screw or front trigger guard screw is the fulcrum point of the fore stock.

In your case if you shim the rear draws area the rear of the stock will be moved down and the fore end tip will move up.

The fore stocks contact points on the receiver form a "V", if you would extend their lines upward you would see this "V". If you add shims, the rear of the stock moves down and the fore stock tip moves upward.

Thin shims can be made of brown paper bags and super glued in place.

The shims are placed at the points indicated.

A Australian by the name of Farcanal sent me the photo below of his Lithgow No.1 range rifle and the bedding light bulb came on.

The two screws in the bottom of the photo go through the stock and into threaded holes in the receiver ring. When tightened these screws pull the rear of the stock "TIGHT" against the receiver ring.
The light colored shims at the top of the draws area are placed there as insurance that the stock can't move closer to the bottom of the receiver and loose "up pressure" at the fore end tip.

Now guess what, the "Canadian Marksman" drawings on the right show the same shims. The problem is "YOU" people are not reading the very material I was giving away free in my manual sticky and this information is now at the "Lee Enfield On-line Knowledge Libraries (Index of Articles) at http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=34880

Cdn303

And Peter Laidler also said the following:

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler View Post

Thanks once again for those humourous but VERY descriptive pictures Ed. I'll be using them on the next small arms school instructors course. One picture really does describe a thousand words.

Naturally, once again, I'll be telling them (and the more senior Officers that drop in from time to time) that I thought them all up.

Thanks again Ed

And afterwards I said the biggest problem with these Enfield stocks was they were "dry as a popcorn fart." So Peter used that line in a pub when he ordered a beer and got a big laugh. So the next day he mentioned he got special dispensation from the Queen and made be a honorary British Armourer. (But don't tell the Queen where I got it)

All the information in the world is written in books and all you have to do is read.

 

[big zed]

All I like to say,THANK YOU very much for the information !

 

[HarryD]

Hey Ed,

If its a king screw in Australian nomenclature, is it still a king screw on the No4 if Australians never manufactured the No4 rifle?

Just asking.

I'm really enjoying your post as always. Been a while.

 

[bigedp51]

Hey Ed,

If its a king screw in Australian nomenclature, is it still a king screw on the No4 if Australians never manufactured the No4 rifle?

Just asking.

I'm really enjoying your post as always. Been a while.

If your drinking Earl Gray tea, if your steering wheel is on the right hand side of the car and your being proper, its the front trigger guard screw. And long as you don't call it the screw thing doohickey and people understand you then your OK.

Below, I mentioned the rear of the fore stock moving up and down and the up pressure at the fore end tip changing. Now look at the lower fore stock in the photo below and its "steel"dowelled stockbolt keeper. The rear of the stock bolt keeper would rest against the receiver ring/butt socket (area "B") and the two steel dowels would contact the sear lugs (Area "B") The tips of the two steel dowels would be fitted/filed until the rear of the fore stock was in the proper location to help maintain fore end tip up pressure. Meaning the "steel"dowelled stockbolt keeper would "NOT" move upward between "A" and "B" and lower fore end tip up pressure.

So remember the King screw or front trigger guard screw is the fulcrum point of the fore stock just like a kids teeter totter. And shimming the draws in the rear of the stock controls up pressure at the fore end tip.
And as the wood fore stock ages and the wood shrinks the rear of the stock will move upward and you loose your up pressure at the fore end tip.

 

[HarryD]

The forend pictured with the steel pins is a very rare bird Ed. Only used for a short time during the period of lowest lithgow rifle production. It seems it wasn't a success.

 

[5THBATT]

The forend pictured with the steel pins is a very rare bird Ed. Only used for a short time during the period of lowest lithgow rifle production. It seems it wasn't a success.

A good idea just not well thought out imo, if only they had the the lugs making full contact over the ends of the pins instead of just half.

 

[bigedp51]

The forend pictured with the steel pins is a very rare bird Ed. Only used for a short time during the period of lowest lithgow rifle production. It seems it wasn't a success.

It was discontinued because it was more costly and labor intensive than just fitting copper blocks. "BUT" you missed my point, humidity and wood compression had no effect on the "steel"dowelled stockbolt keeper" and the rear of the stock did not move upward and loose up pressure at the fore end tip.

The draws area at the rear of the fore stock acts like the "missing" second bedding screw holding the rear of the stock in position.

And also remember both areas below on the stock and receiver form a "V" shaped tapered wedge. Shimming the forward section of the draws pushes the stock to the rear, and as thicker shims are added the rear of the stock moves down and away from the bottom of the receiver. It is this action that increases the up pressure at the fore end tip.

Below thin brown paper shopping bag shims, using super glue to reinforce the wood and paper shims sanded for proper fit. The light colored wood shims were being fitted for the correct up pressure at the fore end tip.

These shims are also used the center the barrel in the fore stock.

The rear of the fore stock does not have to be touching 100% and the red area is where I have applied brown paper shims using super glue. On fore stocks with wood shrinkage the Indians would place thin hard rubber shims here.

The military would use thin aborite (formica) shimming material, on stocks with larger gaps I would sand down formica to size but thin brown paper was used in much thinner areas for a snug fit.

 

[HarryD]

Ed those two surfaces don't form a V shaped wedge. They're parrellel and the fit between them is finite and measurable. If the plates are shimmed to the point that the action won't seat completely, it's too tight but it is not designed to act as a wedge.

I only mentioned that the stock with the pin design was rare, in the interest of other readers who may not have seen one. Whether the practice was dropped because of the cost or not I don't know but it seems by the stocks I've examined, to have not been very effective. On the other hand, the copper plates were a reasonably effective solution to a problem that may have plagued the Lithgow engineers for two decades.

I've done it now haven't I?

 

[bigedp51]

Ed those two surfaces don't form a V shaped wedge. They're parrellel and the fit between them is finite and measurable. If the plates are shimmed to the point that the action won't seat completely, it's too tight but it is not designed to act as a wedge.

I've done it now haven't I?

Years ago I put a straight edge on these two angles and they were not parallel, maybe my memory is faulty. But then again the stock does get tighter as it is pushed into place indicating these two points are not at the same angle. Why don't you check and measure putting a straight edge at both points. If you can prove me wrong then I will stand corrected and it was a long time ago................."BUT"..............

I've done it now haven't I?

 

[HarryD]

Ha! You did do it Ed. You made me engage in an area that I don't normally like to.

Yes, I just checked a Lithgow action and it is almost perfectly parrellel within exceptable limits. But I knew this already Ed because I've done it several times when I've had to install plates. I've never measured a No4 action but I expect the principles are same.

For the record, the action I just measured is nearly dead on 33mm using gauge blocks. I have a jig that clamps a forend to allow a machining operation to install the plates and I can finish machine the faces for the plates without any final hand fitting, simply by gauging that measurement between the sear lugs and the face of the butt socket first. I allow about .05mm to .1mm interference for some crush and a very firm fit.

 

[Cdn303]

Your draws area is "NOT" spot on, you need more shimming to "tighten up the draws, and the King screw or front trigger guard screw is the fulcrum point of the fore stock.

In your case if you shim the rear draws area the rear of the stock will be moved down and the fore end tip will move up....

The draw area on and tight. I powdered the area and everything touches as it should (I compared it to all the manuals that I downloaded from Milsurps several years ago); when installed I have to tap it loose with a block and mallet.

When the problem first occurred I applied several coats of LO thinking it was dry. The oil just sat on the surface, b/c I do keep my stocks oiled yearly. Then I spent several evenings playing around with varying thicknesses of paper and card stock, shimming the stock 6 ways from Sunday. None of it helped my situation. Finally I compared it to a couple of other foreends that I had and looked it over with the use of a straight edge. The tip of the stock is warped away from the barrel and to the one side slightly. It is not so bad that you can use it to make a boat, but it is out enough to pull the tip away from the barrel.

The previously enjoyed stock that I have fits properly (as per the manuals). All I have left to do is trim where the trigger guard sits as it currently springs a bit when the front trigger guard screw is installed/removed.

On any account, we are getting off topic to Lou's OP of "should you loosen the front trigger guard screw when storing your Enfield". I'd say if you are not going to be shooting it for several months/years it probably wouldn't hurt. But if you shoot it regularly I'd say you wouldn't have to.