Help me buy a Norinco M14/M305
- Thread starter Max-4
- Start date
I have had Norincos , Polytechs, Dominion Arms versions of the M1A and they are all basically the same rifle but different stampings .
Of all of them I like the 2 shorter barreled versions that have come out and of those 2 types my DA socom 18 the most .
A lot of the same old problems in quality control show up in all the versions but most issues are easily fixed .
Of all of them I like the 2 shorter barreled versions that have come out and of those 2 types my DA socom 18 the most .
A lot of the same old problems in quality control show up in all the versions but most issues are easily fixed .
So the Norinco M14S and M305B 22" barrel will be the exact same rifle? Will they be stamped M14S and M305B on the receivers? They are both made in the same factory on the same production line, both forged receivers? I'm thinking about getting the Ellwood Epps rifle cause its cheaper and I can drive to pick it up and avoid shipping. Is this rifle every bit as good as the Marstar M305B?
Yes it is the same rifle ...stampings may be different but that doesn't matter.Read the stickies above and learn what to look for in common defects in these rifles .Then go to Ellwoods and look one over before buying it . Some of these are faults are barrels not indexed correctly so the front sight is leaning right or left. Gas cylinders that need shimming .Poor quality rear sights .
If you are within driving distance that would definitely be the way to go. Not to knock marstar, but their shipping rates suck and you can do a few checks yourself like barrel indexing and trigger safety check, see if the sights move, and just general condition instead of just whatever gets sent to you.
Yes sorry guy I know it's somewhere in here posted but can you guys show me how to do the quick checks in the store for barrel indexing and sight quality? I'm heading there in the next few days and need to know what to look for. I get that some of the barrels are "over tightened" but how do I quickly see that in the store? How do I see if the sights are ok and usable or junk? Anything else? Thanks
notsorichguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- The city that rhymes with fun
With the marstar rifle there are no checks needed. They are already done and if a rifle doesn't meet spec it isn't sold.....
All others are suspect and need a good going over. Not that you shouldn't go over your marstar sourced m-14, but you won't have to worry about indexing or any of the other major QC stuff. You may have to shim a gas block but that would be about it.
At least that's been my experience with 10+ mail order rifles from Maratar and 30+ rifles from "other" sources.....
From 45ACPKING
Testing rear sights
Test the rear sight, turn it's windage knob and see if it is snug and the same tension through left to right range. Clicks should be positive and even throughout adjustment.
Next turn windage all the way to right side and then adjust elevation through its range, observe windage knob, it should not turn or move with elevation adjustment...if it does, this is the waning sign of a faulty windage lock collar.
Next look at the rear sight base itself, the vertical centerline should be machined center of the base, often its cut too far to the right of center.
Flash hider, have a good look at it, an out of spec front sight base will be noticeable if you look closely. It could be titled or off center. Rear sights are easily replaced with M1 Garand rear sights (M-14 Doc)
Detailed inspection … front to back
1.) Flashider: Is it welded on? Is it loose? Is the castle nut on tight and locked in place by the set screw? Is the set screw loose.? Is the FH on straight? Can you see any indications that bullets are hitting the FH? Has it been reamed to NM specs? Is it cast? Is it cracked? Is it pitted and corroded?
Does it have a bayonet lug?
Does it have slots, or is it completely closed? Does the rifle “sing” when the bolt slams forward on an empty chamber?
2.) Front sight: is it straight = vertical or is it rotated to one side or the other, indicating expensive reindexing? Is it loose? Is the square at the top? Is it set way off to one side? Is the sight retaining set screw there? Is it the narrower NM sight?
3.) Barrel: is it bent? Is it tight to the receiver? Is the op rod guide tight? Is the op rod guide aligned correctly so the op rod meets the gas piston center? Is the bore chromed? Pitted? Is the chamber smooth … or are there reaming marks visible?
4.) Gas Assembly: is it loose = rotation? Slides back and forth? Is it misaligned? Is the gas assembly plug tight? Does the gas assembly line up with the hole in the barrel? Is the gas turn off valve vertical or horizontal? Is the bore of the gas assembly corroded or worn? Does the piston move freely and smoothly? Is the piston chipped or peened? Is there carbon built up inside the gas assembly or the piston? Does the ferrule rattle? Does the hand guard ferrule tension correctly to the stock?
5.) Op rod: Chinese op rods are forged one piece, same as the best US GI TRW op rods. Chinese op rods are usually good for hardness. Check for tab wear, bends, and cracking? Springfield op rods are often US GI, but if not, they may be cast, and vary considerably in quality. US GI op rods are, of course, the best, but most are now well worn, and rewelds from scrap pieces may be on the market. Check the weld on any two piece US GI op rods for cracks and voids. Check for bends, and that the op rod runs straight in the receiver groove?
6.) Receiver: Field test check for softness … run a file lightly over some hidden spot see if file catches and cuts easily … if so, this receiver is too soft for long term durability. Reheat treatment may be desirable. Look for any obvious burrs, cracks, or rough spots? Some of the NEW Chinese receivers have the top of the receiver right locking lug corner cut square [ and sharp enough to cut yourself ]. This corner should provide a smooth transition between vertical to horizontal motion, and should be softly rounded and smooth. Some of the OLD Springfield Armoury M1A receivers do NOT have enough clearance under the bolt roller, to allow the bolt to close completely. This will slam the bolt roller between the receiver and the op rod … which is not a good thing. Simple solution for the sharp right lug corner, and no bolt roller clearance … a Dremel with a ½” wheel. Also check at the rear, where the tang of the safety rotates against the receiver … is there a groove worn into the receiver by the tang?
Other than the above, checking the receiver for proper dimension is a job for a professional with the right tools. However, every Chinese receiver I’ve personally inspected was as good or close to US GI dimensions. Odds of you getting a bad Chinese receiver are very slim. If this is a cast commercial receiver, odds of getting some dimensional variations are very high. Whether these variations will significantly effect performance is again best left to a professional to determine. As an example, with the last Springfield M1A receiver I built up into a full house target rifle, the bolt lapping with a NEW GI TRW bolt took about 30 minutes to achieve proper bearing on both lugs. It also took about 3 hours to fit a near new TRW one piece op rod. The final product was as good as it gets, but it did take a LOT longer to fit the GI parts, than would be usual with a Chinese FORGED receiver.
7.) BOLT: inspect the left locking lug … does it look like it was hand ground with a Dremel tool? If so it may not be properly fitted to the left locking lug. On a used bolt, check the wear patterns. On a new bolt, get some RED permanent marker ink on the lug surfaces, and inspect the seating. Does the bolt engagement provide maximum bearing evenly on both lugs? Extractor fit? Ejector spring tension? Firing pin protrusion? Timing? firing pin tang wear ?
Test fire … go to the range and load only two rounds in the magazine … test fire one round … see if the rifle doubles? eject the second round from the chamber and look at the primer dimpling? … yes, the M-14 has a floating firing pin, with no spring to keep it away from the primers. Yes, this is scary, but on a properly set up M-14, using proper ammunition, you will not get a slam fire.
At the last WET Coast M-14 seminar, we had one bolt that had a bit of brass stuck in the firing pin hole. This is not that uncommon with these rifles, especially if the firing pin hole is worn, or the pin tip is chipped. PAY ATTENTION HERE ... this is definitely not a good thing [ aka "INSTANT DEATH or SLAMFIRE" ].
Because the firing pin is the inertial design, with NO RETACTING SPRING, it is a very good idea to check that firing pin hole from time to time, to see if any crud [ especially primer shavings ] is building up in there. While the firing pin/receiver camming action SHOULD still retract the firing pin even with a bit of garbage clogging the system, this is not something you want to test for your self. A clean rifle is a happy rifle ... and a lot safer too.
Which leads to the scary question ... how do you take that bolt apart??? There are enough horror stories about M-14 bolt disassembly [that ejector spring launches the ejector with enough power to pierce your eyeball and embed itself in your brain ,,,,that it might pay to invest in one of the bolt disassembly tools. The tool makes it simple to disassemble the inside parts, and keep the firing pin channel clean.
8.) Rear Sight: Is the rear sight tight, or does it move around a lot if you wiggle the aperture arm? Is the hole in the rear sight centered? Does the rear sight move up and down? Does the rear sight adjust left to right? Does the sight stay set?
9.) Trigger group: does the trigger group lock in with a bit of spring [ about ½” of tension ]? Does the safety lock the firing mechanism when engaged? Does the safety move with correct tension? With no magazine in the rifle, hammer cocked, and safety on, does the hammer follow if you drop the bolt on an empty chamber? Try this again with the safety off to test the front hooks on the hammer? Now, with the trigger held back, test the rear hooks on the hammer by trying this again? Is the trigger pull creepy? What is the weight of the trigger pull? Measure it carefully …4 and 1/2 lbs is the MINIMUM safe weight. If it is less than 4 ½ lbs, then the hammer may follow in some circumstances. … Especially if the rifle is not held tightly against the shoulder.
NOTE: changing stocks on the M-14 rifle can definitely change the way the trigger functions, so every time you swap the stock on an M-14 type rifle, you should do this trigger group safety check again.
.At the range, after performing test firing for test # 7, load five rounds … hold the rifle loosely … and fire all five rounds. With the rifle held loosely, did it double … or worse yet, run away with the whole magazine?
10.) Magazine: Pinned correctly to meet Canadian firearms laws to 5 rounds ONLY? Latches in the receiver tightly? Bent lips? Dents? Follower? Spring?
11.) Stock: Is the receiver tight to the bedding lugs? Receiver tight at top rear bedding surface? Does the receiver slide back and forth in the stock? Are the bearing surfaces for the trigger guard compressed in? Does the trigger guard lock in with correct tension? Is the front of stock tight against the ferrule? Ferrule greased? Hand guard cracked? Loose? Clearances at top of fore stock? Butt plate bent? If using a GI stock with a clone, has the connector lock pin been replaced with a longer one, or has the stock been padded to keep the shorter commercial connector lock from shuffling out? If using a Fibreglass GI stock, does the butt plate have the correct top screw, nut and nut retainer?
12.) Scope mount … is this one of the very few scope mounts recommended by the CGN scope mount FAQs that will actually work, or is it cheap no name TRASH??? If you paid a lot less for it than you did for the rifle, then it is most likely TRASH. If you can shoot better with Iron sights than you can with a scope, then your scope
Testing rear sights
Test the rear sight, turn it's windage knob and see if it is snug and the same tension through left to right range. Clicks should be positive and even throughout adjustment.
Next turn windage all the way to right side and then adjust elevation through its range, observe windage knob, it should not turn or move with elevation adjustment...if it does, this is the waning sign of a faulty windage lock collar.
Next look at the rear sight base itself, the vertical centerline should be machined center of the base, often its cut too far to the right of center.
Flash hider, have a good look at it, an out of spec front sight base will be noticeable if you look closely. It could be titled or off center. Rear sights are easily replaced with M1 Garand rear sights (M-14 Doc)
Detailed inspection … front to back
1.) Flashider: Is it welded on? Is it loose? Is the castle nut on tight and locked in place by the set screw? Is the set screw loose.? Is the FH on straight? Can you see any indications that bullets are hitting the FH? Has it been reamed to NM specs? Is it cast? Is it cracked? Is it pitted and corroded?
Does it have a bayonet lug?
Does it have slots, or is it completely closed? Does the rifle “sing” when the bolt slams forward on an empty chamber?
2.) Front sight: is it straight = vertical or is it rotated to one side or the other, indicating expensive reindexing? Is it loose? Is the square at the top? Is it set way off to one side? Is the sight retaining set screw there? Is it the narrower NM sight?
3.) Barrel: is it bent? Is it tight to the receiver? Is the op rod guide tight? Is the op rod guide aligned correctly so the op rod meets the gas piston center? Is the bore chromed? Pitted? Is the chamber smooth … or are there reaming marks visible?
4.) Gas Assembly: is it loose = rotation? Slides back and forth? Is it misaligned? Is the gas assembly plug tight? Does the gas assembly line up with the hole in the barrel? Is the gas turn off valve vertical or horizontal? Is the bore of the gas assembly corroded or worn? Does the piston move freely and smoothly? Is the piston chipped or peened? Is there carbon built up inside the gas assembly or the piston? Does the ferrule rattle? Does the hand guard ferrule tension correctly to the stock?
5.) Op rod: Chinese op rods are forged one piece, same as the best US GI TRW op rods. Chinese op rods are usually good for hardness. Check for tab wear, bends, and cracking? Springfield op rods are often US GI, but if not, they may be cast, and vary considerably in quality. US GI op rods are, of course, the best, but most are now well worn, and rewelds from scrap pieces may be on the market. Check the weld on any two piece US GI op rods for cracks and voids. Check for bends, and that the op rod runs straight in the receiver groove?
6.) Receiver: Field test check for softness … run a file lightly over some hidden spot see if file catches and cuts easily … if so, this receiver is too soft for long term durability. Reheat treatment may be desirable. Look for any obvious burrs, cracks, or rough spots? Some of the NEW Chinese receivers have the top of the receiver right locking lug corner cut square [ and sharp enough to cut yourself ]. This corner should provide a smooth transition between vertical to horizontal motion, and should be softly rounded and smooth. Some of the OLD Springfield Armoury M1A receivers do NOT have enough clearance under the bolt roller, to allow the bolt to close completely. This will slam the bolt roller between the receiver and the op rod … which is not a good thing. Simple solution for the sharp right lug corner, and no bolt roller clearance … a Dremel with a ½” wheel. Also check at the rear, where the tang of the safety rotates against the receiver … is there a groove worn into the receiver by the tang?
Other than the above, checking the receiver for proper dimension is a job for a professional with the right tools. However, every Chinese receiver I’ve personally inspected was as good or close to US GI dimensions. Odds of you getting a bad Chinese receiver are very slim. If this is a cast commercial receiver, odds of getting some dimensional variations are very high. Whether these variations will significantly effect performance is again best left to a professional to determine. As an example, with the last Springfield M1A receiver I built up into a full house target rifle, the bolt lapping with a NEW GI TRW bolt took about 30 minutes to achieve proper bearing on both lugs. It also took about 3 hours to fit a near new TRW one piece op rod. The final product was as good as it gets, but it did take a LOT longer to fit the GI parts, than would be usual with a Chinese FORGED receiver.
7.) BOLT: inspect the left locking lug … does it look like it was hand ground with a Dremel tool? If so it may not be properly fitted to the left locking lug. On a used bolt, check the wear patterns. On a new bolt, get some RED permanent marker ink on the lug surfaces, and inspect the seating. Does the bolt engagement provide maximum bearing evenly on both lugs? Extractor fit? Ejector spring tension? Firing pin protrusion? Timing? firing pin tang wear ?
Test fire … go to the range and load only two rounds in the magazine … test fire one round … see if the rifle doubles? eject the second round from the chamber and look at the primer dimpling? … yes, the M-14 has a floating firing pin, with no spring to keep it away from the primers. Yes, this is scary, but on a properly set up M-14, using proper ammunition, you will not get a slam fire.
At the last WET Coast M-14 seminar, we had one bolt that had a bit of brass stuck in the firing pin hole. This is not that uncommon with these rifles, especially if the firing pin hole is worn, or the pin tip is chipped. PAY ATTENTION HERE ... this is definitely not a good thing [ aka "INSTANT DEATH or SLAMFIRE" ].
Because the firing pin is the inertial design, with NO RETACTING SPRING, it is a very good idea to check that firing pin hole from time to time, to see if any crud [ especially primer shavings ] is building up in there. While the firing pin/receiver camming action SHOULD still retract the firing pin even with a bit of garbage clogging the system, this is not something you want to test for your self. A clean rifle is a happy rifle ... and a lot safer too.
Which leads to the scary question ... how do you take that bolt apart??? There are enough horror stories about M-14 bolt disassembly [that ejector spring launches the ejector with enough power to pierce your eyeball and embed itself in your brain ,,,,that it might pay to invest in one of the bolt disassembly tools. The tool makes it simple to disassemble the inside parts, and keep the firing pin channel clean.
8.) Rear Sight: Is the rear sight tight, or does it move around a lot if you wiggle the aperture arm? Is the hole in the rear sight centered? Does the rear sight move up and down? Does the rear sight adjust left to right? Does the sight stay set?
9.) Trigger group: does the trigger group lock in with a bit of spring [ about ½” of tension ]? Does the safety lock the firing mechanism when engaged? Does the safety move with correct tension? With no magazine in the rifle, hammer cocked, and safety on, does the hammer follow if you drop the bolt on an empty chamber? Try this again with the safety off to test the front hooks on the hammer? Now, with the trigger held back, test the rear hooks on the hammer by trying this again? Is the trigger pull creepy? What is the weight of the trigger pull? Measure it carefully …4 and 1/2 lbs is the MINIMUM safe weight. If it is less than 4 ½ lbs, then the hammer may follow in some circumstances. … Especially if the rifle is not held tightly against the shoulder.
NOTE: changing stocks on the M-14 rifle can definitely change the way the trigger functions, so every time you swap the stock on an M-14 type rifle, you should do this trigger group safety check again.
.At the range, after performing test firing for test # 7, load five rounds … hold the rifle loosely … and fire all five rounds. With the rifle held loosely, did it double … or worse yet, run away with the whole magazine?
10.) Magazine: Pinned correctly to meet Canadian firearms laws to 5 rounds ONLY? Latches in the receiver tightly? Bent lips? Dents? Follower? Spring?
11.) Stock: Is the receiver tight to the bedding lugs? Receiver tight at top rear bedding surface? Does the receiver slide back and forth in the stock? Are the bearing surfaces for the trigger guard compressed in? Does the trigger guard lock in with correct tension? Is the front of stock tight against the ferrule? Ferrule greased? Hand guard cracked? Loose? Clearances at top of fore stock? Butt plate bent? If using a GI stock with a clone, has the connector lock pin been replaced with a longer one, or has the stock been padded to keep the shorter commercial connector lock from shuffling out? If using a Fibreglass GI stock, does the butt plate have the correct top screw, nut and nut retainer?
12.) Scope mount … is this one of the very few scope mounts recommended by the CGN scope mount FAQs that will actually work, or is it cheap no name TRASH??? If you paid a lot less for it than you did for the rifle, then it is most likely TRASH. If you can shoot better with Iron sights than you can with a scope, then your scope
Does Marstar really do all these checks to each rifle before sending them out? If that's the case maybe it's worth the extra $100 if I don't really know what I'm looking for...
I've bought a lot of rifles from various dealers and for the most part, your not really garaunteed a better rifle by choosing one dealer over another. In this case , for me, it would boil down to total cost to my door, what it comes with and how hassle free an exchange or refund will be if I'm not happy when I open the box.
Glock4ever
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
I remember a long while back - 2004/5 timeframe that there was a difference in M14s coming into Canada from China. There were blued models that had the ground receivers coming from one distributor and standard parkerized ones with normal receivers coming from another. They were all the same price but the blued ones were crappier than the standard parkerized ones. I haven't heard of this situation popping up again so I think you can pretty much count on all of the rifles (DA/Norinco) to be roughly of the same quality so I would go with the cheaper of the two.
notsorichguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- The city that rhymes with fun
This from numerous other threads
I also remember one post by Johnone "dang if I can find it" where he states that they usually turn away 2/3 rifles when picking for a shipment. In other posts Johnone also states that he or an employee goes over to examine firearms before they get shipped.....
It's pretty clear that marstar "believes" they do a more than adequate job on QC before it even leaves China! There warranty is pretty hard to beat as well.
I also formed the opinion (which may or may not be accurate) from several posts over time that that Johnone believes that all most all of the other dealers are being offered their "rejects" as well as any others that are in the pipeline...... Since no one else bothers to go and check up on the manufacturer.
In my very humble opinion, if ordering online, I would wait 6 months and pay 20% more for a marstar M-305.....
If you are able to examine it at the B&M store before buying it, then it's worth saving a few bucks!
I also remember one post by Johnone "dang if I can find it" where he states that they usually turn away 2/3 rifles when picking for a shipment. In other posts Johnone also states that he or an employee goes over to examine firearms before they get shipped.....
It's pretty clear that marstar "believes" they do a more than adequate job on QC before it even leaves China! There warranty is pretty hard to beat as well.
I also formed the opinion (which may or may not be accurate) from several posts over time that that Johnone believes that all most all of the other dealers are being offered their "rejects" as well as any others that are in the pipeline...... Since no one else bothers to go and check up on the manufacturer.
In my very humble opinion, if ordering online, I would wait 6 months and pay 20% more for a marstar M-305.....
If you are able to examine it at the B&M store before buying it, then it's worth saving a few bucks!
ipscgraz
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Well I just made the final mouse click on a Marstar Norinco M305 22" rifle. I decided to go with them because they know what to look for in these rifles and hopefully they have a bit of quality control themselves. It cost me $100 more than another dealer but the piece of mind, extra magazine and warranty is worth it in my opinion. I am going to keep this rifle pretty plain jane if I do any changes it may be a synthetic SA stock, different flash hider and some spring upgrades.
What is the best bang for your buck on some good quality surplus ammo that these rifles like?
What is the best bang for your buck on some good quality surplus ammo that these rifles like?
