Springfield NM accuracy?
- Thread starter Madmardigan
- Start date
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
But you did not really answer his final question.
and who knows if "that" NM you are buying is up to task
have you verified headspace, muzzle wear and throat erosion ?
just because it's a Springfield NM means nothing until you put rounds down range and see what "that particular rifle" is capable of.
I'd do that before putting any cash down or taking anyone's advice on it's accuracy when none of us have shot "that" rifle.
a lot of factors come into play when buying a rifle for it's accuracy and 1000 yard potential. and I'll repeat, just because it's a springfield NM means nothing
and a rifle with bad muzzle wear, throat erosion, and on and on...... ain't worth beans no matter what name is on it or what it costs new.
I've been burned in this way many years ago buying a high end rifle and not doing my homework. If I'm gonna drop coin on a USED rifle costing over a grand or more, I want to KNOW that stuff before putting my money down. With a new rifle, from the factory, maybe this isn't such a worry.
have you verified headspace, muzzle wear and throat erosion ?
just because it's a Springfield NM means nothing until you put rounds down range and see what "that particular rifle" is capable of.
I'd do that before putting any cash down or taking anyone's advice on it's accuracy when none of us have shot "that" rifle.
a lot of factors come into play when buying a rifle for it's accuracy and 1000 yard potential. and I'll repeat, just because it's a springfield NM means nothing
and a rifle with bad muzzle wear, throat erosion, and on and on...... ain't worth beans no matter what name is on it or what it costs new.
I've been burned in this way many years ago buying a high end rifle and not doing my homework. If I'm gonna drop coin on a USED rifle costing over a grand or more, I want to KNOW that stuff before putting my money down. With a new rifle, from the factory, maybe this isn't such a worry.
Glock4ever
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
Assuming that the NM is new, it should be able to group around 1-2 MOA with match grade ammunition fairly consistently which is more than capable for hitting at 1km but keep in mind most loads for .308 Win aren't supersonic at 1km so you may have some problems consistently hitting at 1km. If you get into reloading Lapua has a 155 VLD Scenar that with the right powders should be supersonic at 1km. The 168gr SMK Match Load goes sub-sonic at 1km so it isn't really recommended for long distance shooting (mentioned earlier). The 175 grain SMK may do the job but I think you would fint the 155 Scenars to be the better projectile. Good luck with your new rifle.
I'm confused 45acp...
Is the rifle used? I missed that.
If it is used and the barrel is shot out, it's no big trick to re-barrel it.
Am I missing something?
1000 yards is a bit of a stretch though. I mean, they will go that far, but what do you expect to hit?
Gas guns bleed off some of the pressure to cycle the gun, that will reduce your velocities a touch. It will also cause your velocity to fluctuate more than a bolt gun. I'd turn the gas off, that would help.
Even if the gun shoots 1 inch groups at 100 yards does not mean that it would be capable of 10 inch at 1000 because of velocity variation. More than likely you would get a group 10 inches wide but maybe 20 inches tall under real clear no wind conditions.
Plus you'll need to factor in how solid the rifle will hold a zero. A good bolt gun is free floated... not the case with the M1a. The stock will move around from day to day and cause your POI to shift a bit too.
I'm not bashing the gun. I have 2 and 1 on the way. Just keepin it real, that's all.
Another thing is keeping the bullet supersonic. If you crunch the ballistic numbers with real BC and real velocities, you'll see that it's a bit of a trick to develop a good load that will remain hypersonic that far. Even for a long barreled bolt gun, you need to be very selective about the load.
Is the rifle used? I missed that.
If it is used and the barrel is shot out, it's no big trick to re-barrel it.
Am I missing something?
1000 yards is a bit of a stretch though. I mean, they will go that far, but what do you expect to hit?
Gas guns bleed off some of the pressure to cycle the gun, that will reduce your velocities a touch. It will also cause your velocity to fluctuate more than a bolt gun. I'd turn the gas off, that would help.
Even if the gun shoots 1 inch groups at 100 yards does not mean that it would be capable of 10 inch at 1000 because of velocity variation. More than likely you would get a group 10 inches wide but maybe 20 inches tall under real clear no wind conditions.
Plus you'll need to factor in how solid the rifle will hold a zero. A good bolt gun is free floated... not the case with the M1a. The stock will move around from day to day and cause your POI to shift a bit too.
I'm not bashing the gun. I have 2 and 1 on the way. Just keepin it real, that's all.
Another thing is keeping the bullet supersonic. If you crunch the ballistic numbers with real BC and real velocities, you'll see that it's a bit of a trick to develop a good load that will remain hypersonic that far. Even for a long barreled bolt gun, you need to be very selective about the load.
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in the OP's other thread about this rifle (I'm assuming this) he mentioned he was buying it used from a friend and wanted a fair price estimate on it's value.
HERE >>> http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1201988-M1A-National-Match-value
rebarrelling an NM , let's see, with current exchange rate yer looking at over 600.00 landed for the barrel (assuming it's a Krieger), install, chamber ream and re attaching all the parts to the barrel and proof firing...... probably would put the bill somewhere near 1000.00 at a reputable smith by the time taxes and shipping are factored in. (for what it's worth, I base this on my own shop rates when I was one of Canada's few practicing M14 specialized shops)
no one is saying he has a used , shot out rifle on his hands, I merely posted that one needs to be wary of buying used, and that a used springfield NM does not garauntee yer gonna get a highly accurate rifle.
TacticalTeacher
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Georgian Bay, ON
Heed these words.... This is the voice of experience.
After all the work the USMC shooting teams did to their NM tuned M14 rifles (back in 1997-98), the US Army AMTU beat their pants off with tweaked M16A2's shooting 80 gr Sierra MK VLD booolits. This is documented all over.
And then when I was shooting US High Power NM Course of fire, box stock Colt HBar rifles were shooting into an inch with 69 gr Sierra MK's. No glass bedding and hardly any accurizing. Just toss a scope and a mount on the carrying handle and do your load testing. Life was very simple back then... A pic of our M14's and M1A's from 1995 in the ORA here at Mons Range, Base Borden....
So will your M1A shoot really well? Lots and lots of variables at play! Start with what Thomas says and work from there!
cheers and keep helping them noobies....
Barney
Both my NM came in at 1.632 and 1.633 for headspace, on the range in equal conditions shot with the same ammo, will group very close the same, last summer, i did the experience and given the same operator and conditions those rifle are performance matched, i call that repetitive perfection... JP.
The rifle in question is used. I was talking with the current owner today, he seems to recall that it is a 80's built gun. He bought it in 2002 used, and has fired 20 rounds through it.
As for head spacing, muzzle wear and throat erosion, I have no idea. Ive handled this gun once about a year and a half ago, and as far as fit/finish and overall looks it was mint.
I'm picking it up from him tomorrow and I'll have it for the weekend to inspect it before I decide to buy. I'm hoping to take it to a gunsmith to get his opinion on the rifle.
To be honest, the M1A was never really on my radar. I'm only considering buying this one because I know its a good price, and I'll always be able to recoup my money.
That said, I was hoping to get into long range shooting this spring. Origionally I had planned on building a 700 for this purpose. But this deal came up, so now I'm hoping this M1A can do the task. Realistically, all I'll be doing is shooting at a steel IPSC target at +/- 600 yards. But if it was capable of shooting that same target further away all the better.
As for head spacing, muzzle wear and throat erosion, I have no idea. Ive handled this gun once about a year and a half ago, and as far as fit/finish and overall looks it was mint.
I'm picking it up from him tomorrow and I'll have it for the weekend to inspect it before I decide to buy. I'm hoping to take it to a gunsmith to get his opinion on the rifle.
To be honest, the M1A was never really on my radar. I'm only considering buying this one because I know its a good price, and I'll always be able to recoup my money.
That said, I was hoping to get into long range shooting this spring. Origionally I had planned on building a 700 for this purpose. But this deal came up, so now I'm hoping this M1A can do the task. Realistically, all I'll be doing is shooting at a steel IPSC target at +/- 600 yards. But if it was capable of shooting that same target further away all the better.
An M1A built in the 80's should have a bunch of GI parts. My 1988 Super does. Give the bolt, oprod and trigger group a good going over and post numbers for us. My rifle has the hooded aperture but the windage knob is machined for 1/2 MOA clicks with a spring loaded ball riding in drilled detents on the receiver rather than the large rectangular lugs. It will also have 7.62mm stamped on the heel in 5 lines if it is preban. Sounds like you may have found a nice rifle.
The DCRA used 7.62 NATO out of single shot rifles for 1,000 yard shooting for eons. 1.5 MOA at 1,000 is 15 inches. The Bull on a 1,000 yard DRCA target is 24", as I recall. So the distance is not the issue. Mirage, the shooter and all the other variables TacticalTeacher speaks of are the issue. Don't let that stop you though. Match shooting in general is great fun.
Since you aren't reloading, you will have to try a box of a$ many brand$ of match grade ammo a$ you can to find the ammo that particular rifle $hoots best. Said ammo is not cheap. If you can find any in retail shops.
Since you aren't reloading, you will have to try a box of a$ many brand$ of match grade ammo a$ you can to find the ammo that particular rifle $hoots best. Said ammo is not cheap. If you can find any in retail shops.
