SKB lockup?

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Flyinfish

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Just wondering how much play in a sxs action is acceptable? I realize that none is the goal but do does anyone have a rule of thumb to go buy? The reason I am asking is I just bought an Ithica SKB 20 gauge from a dealer. It was sight unseen other than one picture I was assured condition was 88% overall mechanically perfect some blueing wear and small marks on the wood. I would say the physical condition of the wood and metal was accurate however the forend is loose (rattles I fixed it with some tape between the forend and barrels but I am thinking I will have to glass bed it to fix it permanently). The big thing I am concerned about is I can feel and hear a small amount of movement between the receiver and barrels. The locking leaver is just past the 6 o'clock position (not much though). I am disappointed by the purchase so far, the gun was not cheep and I was hoping it would last my lifetime ( and maybe my kids) I have no idea what is required or how much it will cost to get the lockup back to no play. Does anyone have any thoughts?
 
Just a quick note I was looking again and the wiggle is minor hard to notice but still there. I closed the action on a piece of paper and there is no way you could pull it out of there. There is no light visible through the barrel/ receiver matting area. I realize it is not a new shotgun and has most likely seen a lot of use over the years ( the bores on both barrels appear very shiny though no sight of bad wear there). Maybe I am concerned over something very minor. I am new to the sxs world and interested to hear the thoughts of those with experience in this area. Thanks!
 
Well - Sounds like the cross bolt is close to, or has bottomed out. On some guns, you can test this by noting the position of the lever with the action open and the lever tripped, and comparing this to the lever position with the action closed.
Alternatively, if the action pivot is worn, you will experience movement.
FWIW - The paper test you describe should be done with a cigarette paper.
If the lever is bottomed out, then you have a very finite lifetime left. If you are shooting grouse a few times a year, it doesn't likely matter. However, if you are shooting clays...
 
google search -- how to fix a loose for end on a shotgun -- some great video instructions. Take the for end off the gun -- with one hand on the barrels and the other on the stock (wrist area) twist & wiggle to check for movement. If there is movement then the gun is off face and may need a hinge pin replacement.
 
Just talked to a very knowledgable gunsmith and it looks like it is the locking lugs. I'm going to have them replaced and that should fix up the play in the action. Once this is done the action should be tight with the locking lever having a deflection to the right. It's not going to be cheep but could be worse.
 
Flyinfish said:
Just talked to a very knowledgable gunsmith and it looks like it is the locking lugs. I'm going to have them replaced and that should fix up the play in the action. Once this is done the action should be tight with the locking lever having a deflection to the right. It's not going to be cheep but could be worse.
Click to expand...

Curious how much if you don't mind.
Cheers
 
Flyinfish said:
Just talked to a very knowledgable gunsmith and it looks like it is the locking lugs. I'm going to have them replaced and that should fix up the play in the action. Once this is done the action should be tight with the locking lever having a deflection to the right. It's not going to be cheep but could be worse.
Click to expand...

Are you sure he's not talking about building them up and then dressing them down?
 
40 dollar part then labour is estimated at 1.5-2 hrs. Definitely not building them up and dressing them down although fitting them to the barrel is what takes the time I gather.
 
Is there movement when the action is closed with the forfend off or is ther movement when the action is open with the forend off if the bbl's do not move when it is closed and the forend off then you need do nothing to the gun it is fine . If there is a little play with it open that is ok as well do not make a problem out of nothing as for the smith I would be very carefull When it comes to someone working on SXS's contact Ron smith recording SKB guns he would be the only knowledgeable person to touch skb's
 
It is the locking bolt that is going to be changed. This was the recommendation made by Ron Sharp who is the Ithaca man in Canada.
 
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That (locking bolt) sounds better. Locking lugs are another matter altogether.
Get your 'smith to tighten up the forend for you while he's at it.
Ron Sharp (was in Dunville, ON IIRC) is definitely the SKB go-to guy, but there are certainly other well qualified gunsmiths
that are more than qualified to work on SKB's ... which are after-all, pretty much a Japanese Merkel knock-off !

If you're all-in for les than $1000 - $1200, then you've done O.K., IMHO.
I much prefer the ITHACA sxs over the Browning BSS and have owned & shot quite a bit with both.
 
The Model 100/200 are internally very much like a Webley & Scott. The Model 500 certainly has Merkel styling, but I've learned that their lock-ups are very different.

I like my SKB 100's, which I use for upland and wabbits, but have no experience with the BSS other than having fired a few shells through a borrowed 12 ga. Beside the BSS being heavier and pricier, what else have you noticed in favour of the SKB?
 
ninepointer said:
... beside the BSS being heavier and pricier, what else have you noticed in favour of the SKB?
Click to expand...

When new in the early 70's, both the Browning (Gr. I ) & Ithaca ( 100 ) SxS's were priced competitively at under $ 300 ! The first Browning SxS I had
was $ 237.50 ( new, retail ), but I don't recall the exact price of the Ithaca 200E I bought ... seems it was around $ 285.00. Both 20 gauge.

The Browning felt "clubby" to me, was muzzle light and difficult to swing smoothly. The Ithaca was "trimmer" better-balanced and much more to my liking.
Although I favour the traditional walnut/blue finish, the Ithaca's "Black Chrome" barrel finish was actual quite attractive and easy to maintain.
I think the Browning SxS now brings a few more $ on the used market than the Ithaca's,
but I have no idea why. Both B.C. Miruko (Browning) and Sakabara ( "SKB" - Ithaca) were well-respected Japanese firms that built high quality firearms. If anything,
I suspect it may be that North Americans have a greater brand recognition or familiarity with the Browning name. In addition, I believe there are far more Browning
SxS's out there than there are Ithacas. Sort of a Parker / A.H.Fox thing.

Both being of the Anson & Deeley boxlock action type are very strong. For some time, a gunsmith in Michigan I believe, was snapping-up all the Browning SxS's he
could get his hands on at a reasonable price and using the actions as a basis for SxS custom rifle builds. While the bolting systems are somewhat different, an experiance
gunsmith really has very little difficulty working on the A&D type boxlock. Even though most sidelocks are a little more comples, they aren't all that difficult either until
one runs across a few particular variations ... like the Purdey for example. Duplicating their mainsprings is apparently a bit of a nightmare, and the action itself is comparitively
much more complex ( but no stronger, better or more reliable) than a H & H.

... and you're right about the Merkel styling ... I was visualizing the Ithaca 500 and 600 O/U's I'd owned.
 
Thanks for that very informative post. SKB and Miroku were certainly on to something good (too bad SKB is no more), and that's why I own 1970's examples of both. Interestingly, in my old stomping grounds (Niagara to Norfolk) the SKB's were quite common (or at least more so than the BBS); something I attribute to the regional influence of the importer, Ithaca Canada, being in Dunnville.

I've heard the BSS compared equally to the Winchester Model 21 in terms of handling, weight and quality, despite the very different prices they fetch. Makes me wonder if the BSS is under-rated or the Model 21 is over-rated, though I suspect the latter. :)
 
The SKB 100 is a far better handling shotgun compared to the BSS. Didn't particularly like the 200E/280E that I had owned....the fore ends are horrible as the ones on the BSS. However, I will take a BSS Sidelock specially in a 20 over the others any time.
 
ninepointer said:
... I've heard the BSS compared equally to the Winchester Model 21 in terms of handling, weight and quality, despite the very different prices they fetch. Makes me wonder if the BSS is under-rated or the Model 21 is over-rated, though I suspect the latter. :)
Click to expand...

Just my opinion, but I think the Model 21 is superior in quality, and depending on Model, some handle better than others. Certainly weight may be roughly equal given the same perameters to each ... but inavariably, most Model 21's I've run across had much better wood than either the BSS or SKB's ... well-figured wood is usually heavier. I've had the opportunity to shoot several of each. The BSS with 28" barrels in 12 gauge feels like a club to me ... while a 30" or 32" vent-ribbed Mod. 21 Trap gun, while admittedy heavier, balances, swings & points much better. Never heard of a Model 21 "shooting loose" but have seen a few exmples of each in both the BSS and SKB.

Their prices should be different too ... even in the 50's, a Model 21 Field was more expensive than a Browning Superposed ... by the mid 60's the Model 21 was available only from the
Winchester Custom Shop ... the lowest Grade, the Custom, was then $,1000. When the BSS's came out. they were still $ 40 or $50 less than the newly introduced Winchester 101's.
The Model 21 Field guns are up in the class of the better grade Parkers (CHEs +) & Foxes (XEs +) even without engraving, ... but I think where they should be. Browning Custom shop SxS sidelocks are up there too. Never seen a BSS or SKB in either 12 or 20 I thought was worth more than $1500 ... but a few have gone for as much as $2300.

So no, at least to me, the BSS is not under-rated nor the Model 21 over-rated. ( I'd love to have a few 21's at the price the BSSs go for ! )

The real deal at the time was the Perazzi MX-8s that Ithaca was importing at about the same time the SKB's were available. Wished I'd bought one then !!!
 
Ahsan Ahmed said:
The SKB 100 is a far better handling shotgun compared to the BSS. Didn't particularly like the 200E/280E that I had owned....the fore ends are horrible as the ones on the BSS. However, I will take a BSS Sidelock specially in a 20 over the others any time.
Click to expand...

The Browning' SxS sidelock is a substantially different gun than the standard BSS. I would take the 20 ga. too ( 28" please ) in a heart-beat.
Most I have seen on the used market are up in the $ 5000 + range.
 
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