Any interest in antique status French 11x59mmR Model 1874 Gras rifles in Canada?
- Thread starter mkrnel
- Start date
I have never seen proof of this, but anything is possible. I think you may be thinking of the WW1 Quebec and Ontario Homeguards that were issued with surplus Mauser 71/84 rifles. Those rifles will have QHG and OHG stamped on the buttstock.
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I was told that this M1874 gras, as used by the Quebec Papal Zouaves were a special order from France and the converted Gras Model 1874/80/14 came from Bannerman's as they had bought a lot of those rifles, but as we all know this was so long ago that both stories could be true, all I know is the quality of this rifle is outstanding and I can see no sign of reject or unusable parts on it and can not imagine the arsenal going to the bother of serial marking all the parts if they were reject and not suitable for regular use. I would have no trouble shooting this rifle as the lockup is very tight without the slightest play or indication of pending failure and the bore is superb!
No point in arguing about this, but in final analysis official French military records do not lie. You have X serial numbered rifle, with no Arsenal markings and no proof marks, so its an official Fusil de Théorie. Since its an Arsenal produced training aid it is normal to have matching serial numbers. Even today France has strict Proofing Laws and any commercial or military rifle meant to be fired will be proved at the Arsenal or the Banc d'épreuve de St-Etienne. Fusil de Théorie are not common and you have a superb specimen so you will still get a good price fot it.
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Eaglelord17
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Sault Ste. Marie
Bannerman didn't do the conversion. The conversion was done by the French Government during WWI. It was done as they were short rifles and the converted Gras were meant for the rearline troops so the frontline troops could have better rifles (Lebel). Italy also did a example of this with there Vetterli's converting them to Model 1870/87/16 which used the 6.5 Carcano round with the 6rd mannlicher clips. After WWI Bannerman sold off the Gras on the surplus market as they did with many other surplus military rifles.
I have been informed the above text translates to Engliash as -
"GRAS X series
Weapons Series X the theory is they are made with scrap parts do not bear the stamp of the Manufacture or punches the Director and Principal Supervisor. They are intended for basic training of the troops. In principle, it is not able to fire with these weapons.
School Gras Series U , V and X were made on a converted chassepots frame.
Their weight was further reduced by reducing the size of the gun and those fittings. No bayonet lug was fitted.
Model sights reduced and graduated in 1866 from 10 to 40 meters. The shortened chamber can only receive a shortened case of 10 mm loaded as the reduced power firing cartridges.
Source: GUNS OF THE FRENCH ARMY TO 1860 1940 by Colonel Jean Martin, Crepin- Leblond editor. "
As this rifle is not a converted Chassepot and has a normal sized chamber that accepts full sized ammo, has the bayonet lug fitted and mounts a issue bayonet with ease, has the normal issue full long range rear sights, and all parts and fittings are full size and the rifle weighs in at the correct weight of just over 9lbs I feel the above quote does not apply to this rifle!
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Your translation is incomplete, two different guns.
- The Fusil X series Gras de Théorie are a complete rifle made from reject Gras parts to replicate functional rifles. The rifles were used by the French Military as training aides.
- Gras scolaire (School Gras Series U , V and X were made on a converted chassepots frame.)
are made from Converted Chassepots are another type of rifle made for use by School Cadet Corps and not the French Military.
- The Fusil X series Gras de Théorie are a complete rifle made from reject Gras parts to replicate functional rifles. The rifles were used by the French Military as training aides.
- Gras scolaire (School Gras Series U , V and X were made on a converted chassepots frame.)
are made from Converted Chassepots are another type of rifle made for use by School Cadet Corps and not the French Military.
Its a training aid so it must be mechanically functional, unlike a Drill Purpose rifle. French used the X serial numbers to identify these rifles as Fusil de Théorie, so no one blew themselves up. The British had a smilar approach and marked their non serviceable rifles of the same period with "Not for Ball".
So if I fire a dozen or so smokeless reloads with a string and it holds up, it should then be good to go right?
I will not load anything as powerful as a 8mm Lebel smokeless powder round pushing a 198gr. solid bronze bullet at 2400 fps like how the French re-barreled them to for use during WW1 although!
I will not load anything as powerful as a 8mm Lebel smokeless powder round pushing a 198gr. solid bronze bullet at 2400 fps like how the French re-barreled them to for use during WW1 although!
If you absolutely have to fire it, have the barrel, bolt and receiver magnufluxed to check for possible metal defects. I suggest you sell it to an advanced French Arms collector who will know what he is dealing with and preserve it for future collectors.
I removed the rifle's barreled action from the stock and found the correct St Etienne Proofhouse mark on both the underside of the action and barrel and multiple inspector/controller inspection marks as well, so this rifle was proofed and should be fine, I will take some pictures later to show!
The proof marks that are stamped on the underside of the barrel and action are this -
Plus there are lots of single and double digit numbers all over the underside of both which I take to be the inspectors inspection marks!
I also found this reference to this above proof mark -
The French proof laws of 1868 was the hardest one in Europe at that time: half the barrel was filled with black powder, the rest of the barrel was filled with number 9 shot and the rifle was fired. Not surprisingly this was at the time the most violent proof.
Here are pictures of the correct proofhouse test marks under the action and barrel and on the bolt -
I guess my description of this rifle being a special order rifle for use by the Montreal Papal Zouaves for their militia use is correct and it is not a unusable French training rifle like your info theorizes! Otherwise why would the arsenal go to the trouble of proof testings it multiple times as shown stamped!
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