the hague banned hollow point or expanding ammo.
hollow points vs fmj for defence
- Thread starter GunGuy34
- Start date
the hague banned hollow point or expanding ammo.
it was the hague convention that banned using hp ammo in wars. police and civilians can still use hp ammo for defence. i think its more to reduce collateral damage. with proper shot placement both can kill. i agree a hp may kill quicker and end the threat. im just playing devils advocate here as some of the arguments for fmj above got me thinking. id use hp ammo for self defense if i lived somewhere i could ccw.
Don't forget that self defence rounds are not disigned to "kill", but rather, incapacitate the target so he his no longer a threath. (Of course, the target often die in the process) Also, as it expend quikly, it will no penetrate a kevlar jacket. It is a good thing for LEO because they are more likely to get shot with their own weapon after beeing disarm in physical encounters.
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We are allowed to use a gun to defend ourselves. The CCC doesn't differentiate (in self defense) between what is used, only when/under what circumstances.
Most prosecutions involving guns in a self defense situation involve unsafe storage, or careless use (discharging in the street/outside or after the threat is gone).
No Crown Prosecutor would, IMO, dare try and take on a self defense case involving a firearm on that fact alone because WHEN they would lose, it would set precedent. They prefer the easier target of nailing you for having the time to go and get your pistol and ammo and then returning to the scene. The day someone has to defend themselves from a home intruder who chose the moment the shot gun or NR was out and being cleaned while left over ammo from the range was being put away is the day the Antis collectively collapse in a fit.
....sorry to hijack.
Errr... fair enough. Here's my exercise on it. Have you ever actually looked at the size of the hole made by a .45 compared to a 9mm? Or even just looked at the brass? Let me think how many times I've been picking up my .45 brass and been tempted to pick up a piece of 9mm by mistake. Never. Or thought a 9mm hole was a hole made by my .45. Never. Sorry, but I have to disagree with your assessment, despite the math. The radius is irrelevant compared to the circumference.
There are plenty of studies where they look at real world results of handgun ammunition hits, and statistically rank handgun loads.
Marshall and Sanow had a pretty comprehensive assembly of information done, and there were also tests done on goats (strasbourg tests)
These studies pointed to Hollowpoint ammunition in handguns being far more effective at incapacitation, something on the order of 30-35% better for "one shot stops".
Whether or not you disagree with some of the methods for measuring these statistics, nobody who takes these things seriously (like the FBI or Homeland security) would ever suggest a FMJ handgun bullet as being anywhere near as effective at incapacitation as modern Hollowpoint.
Marshall and Sanow had a pretty comprehensive assembly of information done, and there were also tests done on goats (strasbourg tests)
These studies pointed to Hollowpoint ammunition in handguns being far more effective at incapacitation, something on the order of 30-35% better for "one shot stops".
Whether or not you disagree with some of the methods for measuring these statistics, nobody who takes these things seriously (like the FBI or Homeland security) would ever suggest a FMJ handgun bullet as being anywhere near as effective at incapacitation as modern Hollowpoint.
i think the fbi are more concerned about collateral damage and possibly injuring a bystander than one shot stoppers.
Most handgun bullets are easily stopped by level IIA vests like most police wear. This includes all the FMJ pistol ammo sold at your local sporting goods store. The choice to not carry ammunition that would penetrate their own vests is therefore kind of implicit in carrying a handgun.
Only with the FN 5.7, Tokarev, or a couple of other exotic handguns would this ever be an issue.
No, I handload 45ACP by feel usually. What happens if you look at the brass? Does it get bigger?
No, that only applies to your other "gun" .... but people would think you're a little odd ..... ;>)
This thread reminds me of the anecdote of how the Americans spent millions designing a pen that would write in zero-g while the Russians just gave their cosmoneaughts a pencil.
You got a 10 round mag, yes? Load half and half.
Problemski solved
You got a 10 round mag, yes? Load half and half.
Problemski solved
Since we cannot own firearm for the purpose of defending our own life this topic is moot.
For the sake of topic, most HP today are 'controlled expansion'. This mean they will not expand 100% as soon as they hit something.
I don't really see any benefit using FMJ for human target when HP are available. HP is basically a way to make a bigger hole while still using a small bullet. a 9mm can make a permanent cavity twice its size.
The other benefit of using a HP is minimize damage incase the gun was used against you (as law enforcement officers).
Considering the fact that most US CCW forum talks about using HP rounds as defense rounds I think we know the answer.
BTW If you really want to penetrate soft body armor,use a rifle round, don't bother with those exotic rounds. -This is just pointing out how dumb the ban on M855 is.
For the sake of topic, most HP today are 'controlled expansion'. This mean they will not expand 100% as soon as they hit something.
I don't really see any benefit using FMJ for human target when HP are available. HP is basically a way to make a bigger hole while still using a small bullet. a 9mm can make a permanent cavity twice its size.
The other benefit of using a HP is minimize damage incase the gun was used against you (as law enforcement officers).
Considering the fact that most US CCW forum talks about using HP rounds as defense rounds I think we know the answer.
BTW If you really want to penetrate soft body armor,use a rifle round, don't bother with those exotic rounds. -This is just pointing out how dumb the ban on M855 is.
The purpose of fmj ammo is to cause minimal damage and wound instead of kill. The same reason it's not allowed for hunting in rifles. Also fmj usually feeds smoother in semi and full auto weapons. In a war they want to wound and not kill so that other people have to stop shooting and help a downed man. Cough 556 cough.
Whether or not HP penetrate far enough through bone and clothing would be a major factor. If hp can't get the job done then fmj would at least do that. Keep in mind that a faster, narrow bullet will penetrate better than a large diameter slow round so it would be somewhat dependant on calibre. Keep in mind that the human body is thin and soft for the most part and you only have to make it half way.
It would be interesting to see the results of shooting through a side of pork with different rounds.
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I regret bringing it up. After doing some more reading, regarding the Hague, and the invention of HP ammo. Its a fact that Hollow Points are bad azz. At least when it comes to Handguns. Rifles do not need a hp to expand as a JSP at rifle speeds will expand anyhow.
So police, FBI, use the HP not just for preventing the risk of over penetration but the energy dump will take place mostly inside the target, ending a confrontation quicker by causing more damage. At least that is the idea if its a quality HP.
So police, FBI, use the HP not just for preventing the risk of over penetration but the energy dump will take place mostly inside the target, ending a confrontation quicker by causing more damage. At least that is the idea if its a quality HP.
Are you planning to shoot yourself?
No I was pointing out FMJ vs HP with actual evidence rather then Internet Anecdotal evidence.
Did you watch the video? or you just making a stupid remark insinuating something about me?
