hollow points vs fmj for defence

Anything other than FMJ ammo is specifically prohibited under the Geneva Convention. You can only shoot civilians with frangible or HP bullets. That is to say - only police can shoot civilians with said frangible/HP ammo.

Even in the US, it is not deemed advisable to use handloaded HP ammo for CCW use. It can and will be used against you in court.

First part is mostly accurate, The Hague conference set out that military could not use rounds designed to cause excessive suffering or injury, and this is interpreted as expanding, fragmenting or explosive projectiles for small arms. The Geneva convention only deals with the treatment of prisoners of war.

The second part is urban myth. It has never been used in a court case to date. But one very prolific writer has been on record that it could be. Yet to happen.
 
i think the fbi are more concerned about collateral damage and possibly injuring a bystander than one shot stoppers.

No. It's a secondary concern. The point of any police agency's ammunition choice is to be as effective as possible at stopping the threat to the concerned police officer or member or the public. The round is chosen based on it's ability, real or perceived, to do this. The way the decision is made is by running comparison tests in a repeatable media, and comparing the results achieved to a known effective round. Is gelatin exactly like a human body? no...but it is repeatable. This allows a scientific process in the development of the terminal ballistics of a new projectile. HP projectiles have come a huge distance in performance in the last 20 years. In the 80's it was a 50% chance they'd open and function as designed...at best, and with winter clothing not that good. They'd plug up and act like a FMJ. The new bonded bullets with presegmented jackets or monolithic designs such as barnes no longer have these issues, and will expand reliably and not shed their jackets after penetrating auto glass or sheet metal.

No knowledgeable trauma surgeon will ever tell you that a FMJ will be as effective as a properly functioning hollow point out of any form of firearm. My sister worked as an ER nurse in a Corpus Christie Texas state hospital and saw on average 4-6 gun shot patients a week. The ones shot with FMJ usually had plenty of fight left, and often walked in on their own. And where usually out much quicker unless a bone was hit. Patients shot by police, or by other gang members who paid for HP ammo generally needed more internal work, and had a much longer recovery time. And where far more likely to be in shock.
 
Bullet shape has a dramatic effect on the wounding potential of non-expanding bullets in soft tissue, so not all FMJs are created equally. Truncated cones are superior to round nose bullets, and WFNs are superior to TCs. The 325 gr hard cast WFNs I load in my .44 magnum do not upset at 1200 fps, but in soft tissue their performance is impressive, and they penetrate deeply, even when bone is hit. When bone is penetrated, a FMJ looses less velocity than a hollow point of similar weight and velocity, that has upset prior to hitting the bone. A long non-expanding tapered bullet, more typical of rifle than handgun bullets, is more prone to erratic penetration due to it's tendency to swap ends or follow the path of least resistance, whereas a short non-expanding bullet with parallel sides and a flat or hemispherical nose tends to penetrate in a straight line. These are all important considerations if you are defending yourself against four footed threats which tend to approach you head first.

If you need to defend yourself from a lethal bipedal threat, face on center of mass shooting is likely the answer to the problem. The hollow point pistol bullet is the gold standard, first due to the benefit of massive for caliber soft tissue wounding, where bigger is indeed better, and secondly due to the "perceived" reduced downrange danger from through and through penetration. A FMJ, particularly a truncated cone or a WFN might arguably be a better performer if your shot was to the point of the shoulder or side on through the pelvis, but no one sustaining those kinds of hits from 9mm/.357/.40/.45 hollow points will be in any position to continue hostilities, so the difference in performance in those circumstances doesn't justify the choosing a bullet design that would prove less effective in a face on confrontation.
 
No I was pointing out FMJ vs HP with actual evidence rather then Internet Anecdotal evidence.

Did you watch the video? or you just making a stupid remark insinuating something about me?

Anesthesiologist vs arm chair experts? There is no insinuation there at all.
If you decided to call the people who were actuallly involved in shootings and did a fine research on this topic the arm chair experts...I have a valid question for you.
If you believe that the FMJ is "better" which round would you rather be shoot with? Hollow point or FMJ?
Next time you decide to apply some logic to your post, you may discover that anybody who made it to the ER after being shot...wasn't neutralized all that well. In other words whoever works there, didn't see what actually works best, because usually the anesthesiologists don't work with the dead bodies. These are picked up by the coroner's office right off the street.
 
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Military Arms Channel on YouTube did some penetration testing recently comparing HP and FMJ ammunition in the .380 which were pretty interesting if that were your choice of self-defence cartridge.
 
Forgot to add Hypothetical question here.

This is Canada, We don't have the right to defend one self with a firearm, so bringing up a topic whats better, FMJ or HP in a HD "pistol" thread. Doesn't take Stephen Hawkins to figure out the answer on how its going to go. I mean Dwisy post are pretty obvious.
 
Forgot to add Hypothetical question here.

This is Canada, We don't have the right to defend one self with a firearm, so bringing up a topic whats better, FMJ or HP in a HD "pistol" thread. Doesn't take Stephen Hawkins to figure out the answer on how its going to go. I mean Dwisy post are pretty obvious.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in china? We talk about all sorts of stuff on here, this topic is no different. We have Police in Canada that carry HP ammo, just pretend we are talking about them. I wasn't refering to myself using one or the other for self defence, just those bullets as a whole world wide and which is better for usage in self defence senarios.
 
What does that have to do with the price of tea in china? We talk about all sorts of stuff on here, this topic is no different. We have Police in Canada that carry HP ammo, just pretend we are talking about them. I wasn't refering to myself using one or the other for self defence, just those bullets as a whole world wide and which is better for usage in self defence senarios.

Talk about the same stuff over and over ( till the dead horse is soo beaten that its now pudding ) Bear defense, Zombie Defense, what is better 5.56 or 7.62x39, best moon gun, Death to Potato gun, HD, ETC ETC ETC
 
Talk about the same stuff over and over ( till the dead horse is soo beaten that its now pudding ) Bear defense, Zombie Defense, what is better 5.56 or 7.62x39, best moon gun, Death to Potato gun, HD, ETC ETC ETC

then why are you here commenting in this thread and bumping it up. if it bothers you so much stfu and ignore it. i dont go into threads that i find anoying.
 
Didn't read the entire thread, but there was an interesting post about the FBI moving to 9mm. 9mm hollow point is on par with other expanding caliber. The military however uses .45 because they are not allowed to use hollow point. Therefore they want to make the biggest hole possible in their target.

Therefore, HP is best for any defense scenario. (Unless the target is using body armor)

Here's an article:

http://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/articles/4851-case-closed-fbi-says-9mm-is-the-best-pistol-round#sthash.V36a4Tyr.dpbs
 
It would be a slow day on CGN if e had a consensus of opinion on .... anything.

Time for those who REALLY care to do some shooting on a pork carcass with HP and FMJ bullets in various calibres. Leaving the guts in place and dressing the carcass in street clothes would add a touch of realism.

Oh, and the fresher, the better, with no blood loss.
 
It would be a slow day on CGN if e had a consensus of opinion on .... anything.

Time for those who REALLY care to do some shooting on a pork carcass with HP and FMJ bullets in various calibres. Leaving the guts in place and dressing the carcass in street clothes would add a touch of realism.

Oh, and the fresher, the better, with no blood loss.

you should do that with those sick looking 500 magnum loads you have. i think its you im thinking about.
 
Didn't read the entire thread, but there was an interesting post about the FBI moving to 9mm. 9mm hollow point is on par with other expanding caliber. The military however uses .45 because they are not allowed to use hollow point. Therefore they want to make the biggest hole possible in their target.

Therefore, HP is best for any defense scenario. (Unless the target is using body armor)

Here's an article:

http://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/articles/4851-case-closed-fbi-says-9mm-is-the-best-pistol-round#sthash.V36a4Tyr.dpbs

No they don't, with the exception of MARSOC, and even they have been using G17 and 19 "under the table" for awhile...
 
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