As I have been bit hard by the milsurp bug, I have a quick question I am hoping someone can help me with. All the guns I plan to buy will go to the range and be shot regularly. I want the gun to be as accurate as possible, while still looking really nice and not all beat up. I do realize these guns are older and that they were used in wartime, I don't expect perfect guns, but would be willing to pay a premium for a good looking shooter. So the question: can I buy a very nice milsurp rifle, shoot it, take care of maintenance, and not destroy the historic value of it? I am not worried about the return on investment if one day I decide to sell it, as much as I am concerned about destroying a gun that someone else would consider a collectors piece. Any advice is appreciated.
Shooter gun vs collector
- Thread starter Erkel1
- Start date
So long as you maintain it, it is unlikely you'll put enough ammo downrange to wear out the bore. The bore life of most milsurps is measured in the tens of thousands of rounds.
Shoot. Enjoy. Clean. Repeat.
Banging around the stock is probably going to be the worst of the damage you do. I use "BoreStores" gunsocks, as they're nice and padded, and prevent safe kisses. Also sillicone impregnated, so it helps prevent moisture buildup and rust.
There's a few different products out there of a similar nature, usually in or around the $20 mark, so small price to pay.
Just stay away from hacksaws and permanent mods to the barrel, stock, and action, and it will be good to go for generations to come.
Shoot. Enjoy. Clean. Repeat.
Banging around the stock is probably going to be the worst of the damage you do. I use "BoreStores" gunsocks, as they're nice and padded, and prevent safe kisses. Also sillicone impregnated, so it helps prevent moisture buildup and rust.
There's a few different products out there of a similar nature, usually in or around the $20 mark, so small price to pay.
Just stay away from hacksaws and permanent mods to the barrel, stock, and action, and it will be good to go for generations to come.
You're going to have to answer that question yourself. Last fall I came across a fellow that decided he had to have a swf 45 (98K) I had that was in 80%+ condition. He paid fair market price for the rifle. He called me recently and asked if I had anything else in similar condition to sell him. He definitely isn't a collector and quite frankly I was surprised he bought the swf 45 just as a shooter.
The fellow is a hound to shoot. He purchased and shot close to 5000 rounds of surplus 8x57 from one of the banner sites and shot them all through that rifle. He has his own personal range on his property (several hundred acres). He and his son shoot a lot and he loves that Mauser. I declined to sell him another collector piece in the same condition and suggested he look for an RC capture with an excellent bore. He wasn't happy about that because he is time constrained with his dairy responsibilities. I told him I would look out for one and picked up a very nice example in Chilliwack. Yes, I paid a premium for the rifle as it wasn't a run of the mill RC and had a late thirties dated receiver with its original barrel. The rest was of course all force matched but the original finish on the receiver/bbl was still present.
I took the rifle to him last week and he paid me for it. The swf 45 had almost no rifling left. The finish was completely gone on the metal as well as the stock. It looked like it had just been picked up off the battlefield. It was sloppy and loose the lug on one side was cracked. Not only that, there was set back in the lug recesses of the receiver. He asked what it was worth and I told him to hang it on the wall as it was now unsafe to shoot. I've seen Mausers with a lot of wear and tear but maybe because this receiver/bolt combo were very late war manufacture heat treatment was compromised???
If I were you, mainly looking for very nice condition shooters. I would look for an vg to exc condition RC capture or one of the as new type 56 SKS rifles offered under $200 or a nice Mosin Nagant 91/30. You could also look at Garands, Arisakas etc.
The Chinese and Soviet offerings have surplus ammo available at reasonable prices and are quite accurate. Most of the ammo is corrosive so you need to be meticulous about cleaning. Garands are pricey and in high demand. You can also look at the Lee Enfield variants which are not garage sale cheap anymore.
If you are just looking for very nice shooters, there are lots of cut downs and bubbas out there that shoot the surplus ammo as well and IMHO, might be just what you are looking for.
The fellow is a hound to shoot. He purchased and shot close to 5000 rounds of surplus 8x57 from one of the banner sites and shot them all through that rifle. He has his own personal range on his property (several hundred acres). He and his son shoot a lot and he loves that Mauser. I declined to sell him another collector piece in the same condition and suggested he look for an RC capture with an excellent bore. He wasn't happy about that because he is time constrained with his dairy responsibilities. I told him I would look out for one and picked up a very nice example in Chilliwack. Yes, I paid a premium for the rifle as it wasn't a run of the mill RC and had a late thirties dated receiver with its original barrel. The rest was of course all force matched but the original finish on the receiver/bbl was still present.
I took the rifle to him last week and he paid me for it. The swf 45 had almost no rifling left. The finish was completely gone on the metal as well as the stock. It looked like it had just been picked up off the battlefield. It was sloppy and loose the lug on one side was cracked. Not only that, there was set back in the lug recesses of the receiver. He asked what it was worth and I told him to hang it on the wall as it was now unsafe to shoot. I've seen Mausers with a lot of wear and tear but maybe because this receiver/bolt combo were very late war manufacture heat treatment was compromised???
If I were you, mainly looking for very nice condition shooters. I would look for an vg to exc condition RC capture or one of the as new type 56 SKS rifles offered under $200 or a nice Mosin Nagant 91/30. You could also look at Garands, Arisakas etc.
The Chinese and Soviet offerings have surplus ammo available at reasonable prices and are quite accurate. Most of the ammo is corrosive so you need to be meticulous about cleaning. Garands are pricey and in high demand. You can also look at the Lee Enfield variants which are not garage sale cheap anymore.
If you are just looking for very nice shooters, there are lots of cut downs and bubbas out there that shoot the surplus ammo as well and IMHO, might be just what you are looking for.
And there is another way, also.
First, remember that the standard WW2 load for a Mauser was derived from the First War anti-tank loading. Unless you are shooting at tanks, you don't need that kind of horsepower.
Then look at the C.E. Harris "Universal Load for Military Rifles". It is 13 to 14 grains or Red Dot shotgun powder with a 180-grain CAST lead bullet. It does not have a lot of kick, it is cheap to reload (like $2.50 a box: a TENTH the price of factory rounds), it is accurate enough to snipe gophers out to 300 yards....... and your bore will last halfway to forever with it.
If you want more info on the Harris Load, PM Tinman204. He has run a zillion of them through his rifles in the past 3 years and counts on 1 MOA from them. He also tells me that he can detect or measure NO bore wear in one rifle after almost 5,000 of them. Buffdog uses exactly the same load for gopher-sniping out to 300 and has a VERY impressive hit record with them.
First, remember that the standard WW2 load for a Mauser was derived from the First War anti-tank loading. Unless you are shooting at tanks, you don't need that kind of horsepower.
Then look at the C.E. Harris "Universal Load for Military Rifles". It is 13 to 14 grains or Red Dot shotgun powder with a 180-grain CAST lead bullet. It does not have a lot of kick, it is cheap to reload (like $2.50 a box: a TENTH the price of factory rounds), it is accurate enough to snipe gophers out to 300 yards....... and your bore will last halfway to forever with it.
If you want more info on the Harris Load, PM Tinman204. He has run a zillion of them through his rifles in the past 3 years and counts on 1 MOA from them. He also tells me that he can detect or measure NO bore wear in one rifle after almost 5,000 of them. Buffdog uses exactly the same load for gopher-sniping out to 300 and has a VERY impressive hit record with them.
I believe preserving history is a very important part of our hobby and should always be a top priority. I personally don't shoot pristine or numbers matching original examples. You can get the EXACT same experience by shooting a m/m example or refurb instead. Go that route for your shooters.
I take the same approach as jbmauser.
If I have the urge to go shooting, I'll take something that has been refurbished or is otherwise somehow not all that collectible.
In my opinion, any use or shooting will contribute to further wear and lower the value of collectible firearms.
Regard,
-Steve
Blatant exploitation of a fellow's weakness, shame on you!
That is a new excuse to buy more toys. Funny, I never thought of that one so clearly before though. Buy a pristine military rifle, then you just HAVE TO BUY another less pristine rifle of the same make to shoot. I have already gone deeper into the rabbit hole. I get a pristine model of a milsurp, then a shooter version, then a beater for spare parts, then I find another pristine version at a great price, gotta buy it, the price is so good, and because... ( why? not sure about that one yet) and pretty soon, gotta get another safe.
You, sir, are a facilitator!
That is a new excuse to buy more toys. Funny, I never thought of that one so clearly before though. Buy a pristine military rifle, then you just HAVE TO BUY another less pristine rifle of the same make to shoot. I have already gone deeper into the rabbit hole. I get a pristine model of a milsurp, then a shooter version, then a beater for spare parts, then I find another pristine version at a great price, gotta buy it, the price is so good, and because... ( why? not sure about that one yet) and pretty soon, gotta get another safe.
You, sir, are a facilitator!
Many collectors do not shoot their rifles - I've shot less than 5% of mine. If I want to shoot - I use a hunting rifle, MM surplus rifle or a common variant of a milsup rifle. I have shot at least 1x of almost all the rifles I collect - just to see what it is like - but once I have had that experience I stop - and on many of my pieces the rifle/pistole/revolver is too nice to shoot - the risk of shooting it outways my urge to put rounds down range.
Then again I have a friend that has shot all his rifles at least once and he is primarily a milsup collector - he is imacculate in regards to care and caution when cleaning, storing and when firing his rifles at the range. Look at most Swiss milsup rifles - the were all shot but the Swiss looked after their rifles very carefully and as a result they are in are in great conditon. The Swiss, just like my freind previously mentioned also don't shoot 100's or rounds - but may shoot 100 rounds in a year - unless you have a magnum hunting rifle most barrels have a 2000+ round count - so the rifle will last many years at 100 round/year. My Weatherby may not last my lifetime and very well may need a re-barelling.
Collectors have to remember that shooters care about bore conditon - most collecors do not - this is directly reflected as the Blue Book of Guns Values and the National Rifle Association do not use barrel conditon when evaluating the value of a firearm - it is all about external appearance.
My two cents.
Then again I have a friend that has shot all his rifles at least once and he is primarily a milsup collector - he is imacculate in regards to care and caution when cleaning, storing and when firing his rifles at the range. Look at most Swiss milsup rifles - the were all shot but the Swiss looked after their rifles very carefully and as a result they are in are in great conditon. The Swiss, just like my freind previously mentioned also don't shoot 100's or rounds - but may shoot 100 rounds in a year - unless you have a magnum hunting rifle most barrels have a 2000+ round count - so the rifle will last many years at 100 round/year. My Weatherby may not last my lifetime and very well may need a re-barelling.
Collectors have to remember that shooters care about bore conditon - most collecors do not - this is directly reflected as the Blue Book of Guns Values and the National Rifle Association do not use barrel conditon when evaluating the value of a firearm - it is all about external appearance.
My two cents.
Out of curiosity smellie what is your reference for the sS ball round being an armor piercing round as opposed to a long range machine gun round adopted in 1918 ?
The Germans all ready had the S.m.K. amour piercing round
From ; = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.92×57mm_Mauser
The German standard s.S. (schweres Spitzgeschoß—"heavy pointed bullet") ball bullet was 35.3 mm (1.39 in) long, boat-tailed, and very well made.[19] It was lead filled, had a gilding-metal-plated jacket, and weighed 12.8 grams (197.53 gr). The s.S. ball boat tail projectile was designed for long range use and offered the best aerodynamic efficiency and external ballistic performance of any standard rifle bullet used during World War II, with a G1 ballistic coefficient between 0.593 and 0.557 (ballistic coefficients are somewhat debatable). When fired at the typical muzzle velocity of 760 m/s (2,493 ft/s) out of a 600 mm (23.6 in) barrel the s.S. bullet retained supersonic velocity up to and past 1,000 m (1,094 yd) (V1000 ≈ Mach 1.07) under International Standard Atmosphere conditions at sea level (air density ρ = 1.225 kg/m3). It had a maximum range of approximately 4,700 m (5,140 yd)[21] Even by contemporary (2012) standards 1000+ m (1,094+ yards) effective supersonic range is quite remarkable for a standard military rifle round. For recognition the circular groove between cap and brass was green, and it had a yellow colored bullet.
For those who are interested in German 7.9mm ammunition;
http://www.municion.org/792/792color.pdf
http://www.mausershooters.org/k98k/8_ident.html
The Germans all ready had the S.m.K. amour piercing round
From ; = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.92×57mm_Mauser
The German standard s.S. (schweres Spitzgeschoß—"heavy pointed bullet") ball bullet was 35.3 mm (1.39 in) long, boat-tailed, and very well made.[19] It was lead filled, had a gilding-metal-plated jacket, and weighed 12.8 grams (197.53 gr). The s.S. ball boat tail projectile was designed for long range use and offered the best aerodynamic efficiency and external ballistic performance of any standard rifle bullet used during World War II, with a G1 ballistic coefficient between 0.593 and 0.557 (ballistic coefficients are somewhat debatable). When fired at the typical muzzle velocity of 760 m/s (2,493 ft/s) out of a 600 mm (23.6 in) barrel the s.S. bullet retained supersonic velocity up to and past 1,000 m (1,094 yd) (V1000 ≈ Mach 1.07) under International Standard Atmosphere conditions at sea level (air density ρ = 1.225 kg/m3). It had a maximum range of approximately 4,700 m (5,140 yd)[21] Even by contemporary (2012) standards 1000+ m (1,094+ yards) effective supersonic range is quite remarkable for a standard military rifle round. For recognition the circular groove between cap and brass was green, and it had a yellow colored bullet.
For those who are interested in German 7.9mm ammunition;
http://www.municion.org/792/792color.pdf
http://www.mausershooters.org/k98k/8_ident.html
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I shoot everything I own from the rare to the mundane. I do take care of my stuff though & I load light & shoot a mountain of cast to reduce wear. Hell, I used a matching 41 port mauser in a milsurp shoot & passed 500 rnds of various ammo through it without any wear I could see. If you google Portuguese mauser, you can see pics of it with my old Pontiac in the back round. both long gone unfortunately. In this instance I thing it more a matter of how you do as opposed to what you do that makes the difference.
I fully agree with this. I have all the respect in the world for those who collect and maintain their firearms to perfection, and the self restraint to simply enjoy it without using it. But these pieces of history that we collect were engineered to function repeatedly and endure some pretty heavy duty stresses. With some moderate use and proper care, I think they can be enjoyed occasionally without too much wear.
If you want something to sit behind a piece of glass or on a shelf, there are lots of hockey cards and stamps out there
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For weather above -10 I find that red dot needs nor wants a filler. After -10 I stuff just a little tuft of dacron in to keep the powder against the primer.
For really cold weather I will also use a magnum primer in some cases but that goes on a rifle by rifle basis.
As for red dot being impossible to find I agree. But at 13 grains to a shot that's 538 shots to a pound if you don't spill any so once you do get some it will last.
Smellie mentioned my testing in regards to cast and bore wear. I have an AG Parker regulated long branch no4 lee enfield. The bore is as new.I've shot that thing enough to get head separations on many sets of brass that I bought with unknown numbers of firings one them. I'm averaging 20-25 loadings on brass that is loaded with red dot exclusively. The bore in that rifle looks as good or better then the day I got it.
As for alternatives to red dot I've personally tested different powders in 303, 7.62x54r, 30/06 , 8x57 ,32 special, 8x56 kropatschek and 43 mauser. The powder I've used are red dot, 2400, imr4198, imr sr4759, imr 4227 and W-571.
All of the above powders work pretty well with some of course giving higher load densities and yielding better accuracy.
I pretty much only shoot cast these days and I've yet to find any bore wear in any rifle I've shot a lot.
Cocked&Locked
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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i just scored about 12 pounds of green dot......wonder if i could cross this over to some extent....anyone tried it?
You can do the exact same thing with green do as red dot. Seems like in most full size rifle calibers green dot uses the same load data as red dot.
