1942 JP Sauer und Sohn Russian capture pics

kjohn

kjohn

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I scooped the above named rifle at a recent gun show. She's not a premium model, but does have a wonderful array of armorer's marks, mismatched parts, forced match bolt, and, of course, a nice coat of Russian shellac. It does have a reasonable bore and no obvious serious pitting on the outside. Some poor German lost possession of this old rifle and the Russians took it up and put it through a "refurb" and tucked it away.

These rifles carry a history of some of the worst times in the 20th century, especially for the unfortunate people anywhere nearby. I know that some pooh-pooh the idea of considering a Russian captured rifle as anything to get worked up over. Heaven and hell only know now what this particular rifle was involved in - perhaps part of some courageous action on the Eastern front, or maybe something on the darker side of the whole affair.

I can post more pics of the various marking if anybody wants.

I could speculate all day, but here are a few pics:

View attachment 25871View attachment 25872View attachment 25870View attachment 25874View attachment 25873
 
The thing I like about the RCs is they are honest rifles. What I mean by that is no one has tried to get the proper coded parts to pass off as 'all matching' or faked things to try to increase the value. The other nice thing is they have the highest likeliness of having served in actual combat just because the parts are from so many different rifles the odds go up.
 
Eaglelord17 said:
The thing I like about the RCs is they are honest rifles. What I mean by that is no one has tried to get the proper coded parts to pass off as 'all matching' or faked things to try to increase the value. The other nice thing is they have the highest likeliness of having served in actual combat just because the parts are from so many different rifles the odds go up.
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IMHO you are jumping to conclusions. Again, IMHO a lot less of those rifles were battlefield pick ups or surrendered rifles than most think. Many of those rifles came out of depots and warehouses that were in deplorable condition and needed to be cleaned up and ftred. About the only K98s or other issue firearms that you can guarantee were issued are those brought back by servicemen. In the US, the fog gets so thick and the waters so muddied that without confirmation papers as being a vet bring back it just isn't so.

The RCs are what they are, a bunch of stripped down and put back together rifles that may or may not have seen combat. In Vienna, which was under Soviet protection at the end of WWII, there were piles of all sorts of equipment in piles all over the place. Most people just couldn't be bothered with them and of course the automatic death penalty for being caught with one was a pretty good deterrent. There were warehouses, depots, police stations, air ports as well as other places full of all sorts of small arms in everything from new to beat to hell condition. The same conditions were all over both East and West Europe. I have talked with immigrants that told me there was still stuff in some fields and buildings with weeds growing between them in the mid fifties. Lots of the good stuff went to North Korea, Africa, Israel, France and some other European nations that adopted the Kar98 as their main battle rifle after WWII. The world was awash in battle tested small arms. The Israeli K98s go from spectacular to well worn. Some people don't consider a rifle to be a 98 unless it was made in Germany. Truth be known, the axis K98s were made all over Europe. Many of the variants don't carry enough snob appeal. The South American variants have a better chance of seeing combat than many others. Everything from cross border wars to civil wars. They show the scars. A lot of RC scars are from being left to the elements for years before being refurbed. What is amazing is how many actually survived that abuse.

OP, that is a very nice RC. Good for you to get a nice one.
 
Bearhunter: I can relate to the piles of small arms. A schoolmate of mine went to Germany in the early 1950's with his parents (their homeland prior to WW2). I can remember him saying something like "broken guns all over the place". It isn't likely he saw any of the "stored" stuff, but he was impressed by the "broken guns". He would have been maybe 6 yrs old at the time.

I think sometimes our imaginations get a bit out of hand, and we tend to maybe want to believe these guns all were in the lead charge. I see people writing about wanting rifles that "have seen action" instead of a nice condition "collector" grade one. You have described some of the "action" these rifles saw. Being heaved onto piles, taken down, heaved into trucks, unloaded and again heaved onto a pile, often more than a couple of times. Certainly, many did see fighting. I can only imagine the mess left after battles such as the one at Stalingrad, for example.

It is most likely a rifle such as the one I posted about did get to somewhere that fighting took place. By the end of WW2, I doubt there were any huge stockpiles of 1942 rifles sitting around in German depots. What I like about the old Lee Enfields, Mausers, Mosin Nagants, and others like them, is the history associated with them. I don't like the mayhem, I like the fact that I can hold this old Mauser in my hands and contemplate the poor bastard that carried it. I can sometimes almost sense their spirit nearby. Silly, isn't it.
 
The eastern front was a meat grinder. Millions killed and a large percentage had k98k.

A vet bring back still doesn't mean it wasn't found in a barracks or post office.

Id say a lot of Russian reworks have seen combat. Based on the sheer numbers of Russian capture its a certainty. IMHO
 
My point was simply that there would have been higher odds of some part of the rifle serving in combat than a all matching rifle simply because usually with the RCs every different part is from a different rifle. If you have parts from 12 rifles than you have the chance of 12 rifles having served in combat rather than the 1 rifle.
 
Eaglelord17 said:
My point was simply that there would have been higher odds of some part of the rifle serving in combat than a all matching rifle simply because usually with the RCs every different part is from a different rifle. If you have parts from 12 rifles than you have the chance of 12 rifles having served in combat rather than the 1 rifle.
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The extractor in my RC was at Stalingrad. I would guess that the majority of RC's saw action. They entered Russia carried by invaders and fought until driven out. In the end there were no REAR AREAS in Germany as the fighting was at Adolph's doorstep. That is a decent RC, too bad about the straight bolt. Markings (WaA 280) show your action to be an ERMA made action. Sauer was a big manufacturer and used actions from both ERMA and Walther (WaA 359). Only ones with the MOD 98 in gothic script on the side rail.
 
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kjohn said:
Bearhunter: I can relate to the piles of small arms. A schoolmate of mine went to Germany in the early 1950's with his parents (their homeland prior to WW2). I can remember him saying something like "broken guns all over the place". It isn't likely he saw any of the "stored" stuff, but he was impressed by the "broken guns". He would have been maybe 6 yrs old at the time.

I think sometimes our imaginations get a bit out of hand, and we tend to maybe want to believe these guns all were in the lead charge. I see people writing about wanting rifles that "have seen action" instead of a nice condition "collector" grade one. You have described some of the "action" these rifles saw. Being heaved onto piles, taken down, heaved into trucks, unloaded and again heaved onto a pile, often more than a couple of times. Certainly, many did see fighting. I can only imagine the mess left after battles such as the one at Stalingrad, for example.

It is most likely a rifle such as the one I posted about did get to somewhere that fighting took place. By the end of WW2, I doubt there were any huge stockpiles of 1942 rifles sitting around in German depots. What I like about the old Lee Enfields, Mausers, Mosin Nagants, and others like them, is the history associated with them. I don't like the mayhem, I like the fact that I can hold this old Mauser in my hands and contemplate the poor bastard that carried it. I can sometimes almost sense their spirit nearby. Silly, isn't it.
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It isn't silly at all and when I bought my first milsurp close to 50 years ago I felt the rush of the rifle talking to me. It hasn't changed at all. I have even been snookered into buying a story rather than the rifle on several occasions. Know what??? I never felt cheated on any of those transactions. I learned from them and paid the price but I also enjoyed the stories. Just like putting out a model 82 Cooey or or No7 Long Branch for sale at the gun shows. I get at least a couple hundred stories from ex cadets over how accurate or awful or heavy or wonderful etc they were. If I could get a buck for every story those rifles would be worth a fortune.

They all wanted the rifles but couldn't afford them or justify the cost in their minds. They usually went away with smiles.
 
Eaglelord17 said:
My point was simply that there would have been higher odds of some part of the rifle serving in combat than a all matching rifle simply because usually with the RCs every different part is from a different rifle. If you have parts from 12 rifles than you have the chance of 12 rifles having served in combat rather than the 1 rifle.
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Hardly. But if it makes you feel better please don't let me change your mind. When I was in Vienna in 1976 I was watching a construction crew dismantling an old building made of granite blocks and beautiful oak and walnut timbers. There were these huge solid wood doors that were appx a meter by 3 meters. Two per opening. There were also gorgeous brass and copper clad doors. Everything was being salvaged. Even the parquet from the floors and whatever was on the walls.

By the end of the week they had most of the centuries old building down to the basement, which was made from piled flat stone about 2 meters wide and maybe 4 meters tall. The floor was covered in 10cm thick flagstone.

When they ripped up the flag stone guess what was there???? An opening about 10 meters x 10 meters square and about 3 meters deep.

The opening was filled completely, right to the old set of steps with crates and piles of small arms, ammo, panzer fausts by the dozen, machine guns, grenades etc. Because I had gotten friendly with the security guards they allowed me to have a very quick look. The whole area had been quarantined within minutes of finding the stash. They scooted all of the construction workers out of the site and by the next morning the place was crawling with military and civilian police. The streets were all blocked off and very strict access controls were put in place until all of the weapons were loaded into trucks and taken away.

What I saw was everything from brand new in the crate rifles with early war dates on the crates. Most of the rifles I saw were made by Steyr and the crates, which I didn't get to look inside of except one that had been opened were painted with Steyr logos. There were rifles piled on the dirt floor, stacked like cord wood. Hundreds of them in every condition you could imagine. One meter square crates full of handguns that were just tossed in. Some in holsters, most just loose. Most of the ammo and grenades were still in their wood crates. In some of the meter square crates were loose rounds just tossed in some on link belts. The same with the grenades, some of which were Soviet design.

This sort of stuff is still being found over there. In France, Normandy they still find Garands, Mausers, Lebels etc jammed into the rafters of old houses and barns. The farmers picked them up with the idea that they had something to sell or protect themselves with if the Allies were turned back.

Its all been there. It doesn't matter if it was used during stressful moments or as a lot of those rifle appear to have never been shot after leaving the factory. The thing is, it doesn't matter a whit. What matters is that you like the firearm and are enjoying it.

Kjohn has the right attitude.

MW how on earth can you deduce the extractor on your RC was at Stalingrad????? The Soviets loaded up convoys and trains full of small arms from all over Europe after the war was over and shipped them all over the Soviet Union as well as China, Korea and many African nations in the throes of rebellion.
 
I havent seen any brand new k98's. Must be looking in the wrong places ;) These guns almost all have at least 5,000 rounds down the pipe.....IMHO
 
there is just something about these old rifles that makes you wonder and imagine where they have been,what they been through,who carried them into battle or did they see action.You can hold it in your hands and let you imagination run wild ,think of it as new of the production line,how proud the young soldier must have been to hold it for the first time ,the sense of security it must have given him.This is what makes them what they are History,they were used in one of the greatest conflicts know to man.
 
gordonlbyrne said:
there is just something about these old rifles that makes you wonder and imagine where they have been,what they been through,who carried them into battle or did they see action.You can hold it in your hands and let you imagination run wild ,think of it as new of the production line,how proud the young soldier must have been to hold it for the first time ,the sense of security it must have given him.This is what makes them what they are History,they were used in one of the greatest conflicts know to man.
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Yes, words cant even describe the significance of these weapons.
 
bearhunter said:
Hardly. But if it makes you feel better please don't let me change your mind. When I was in Vienna in 1976 I was watching a construction crew dismantling an old building made of granite blocks and beautiful oak and walnut timbers. There were these huge solid wood doors that were appx a meter by 3 meters. Two per opening. There were also gorgeous brass and copper clad doors. Everything was being salvaged. Even the parquet from the floors and whatever was on the walls.

By the end of the week they had most of the centuries old building down to the basement, which was made from piled flat stone about 2 meters wide and maybe 4 meters tall. The floor was covered in 10cm thick flagstone.

When they ripped up the flag stone guess what was there???? An opening about 10 meters x 10 meters square and about 3 meters deep.

The opening was filled completely, right to the old set of steps with crates and piles of small arms, ammo, panzer fausts by the dozen, machine guns, grenades etc. Because I had gotten friendly with the security guards they allowed me to have a very quick look. The whole area had been quarantined within minutes of finding the stash. They scooted all of the construction workers out of the site and by the next morning the place was crawling with military and civilian police. The streets were all blocked off and very strict access controls were put in place until all of the weapons were loaded into trucks and taken away.

What I saw was everything from brand new in the crate rifles with early war dates on the crates. Most of the rifles I saw were made by Steyr and the crates, which I didn't get to look inside of except one that had been opened were painted with Steyr logos. There were rifles piled on the dirt floor, stacked like cord wood. Hundreds of them in every condition you could imagine. One meter square crates full of handguns that were just tossed in. Some in holsters, most just loose. Most of the ammo and grenades were still in their wood crates. In some of the meter square crates were loose rounds just tossed in some on link belts. The same with the grenades, some of which were Soviet design.

This sort of stuff is still being found over there. In France, Normandy they still find Garands, Mausers, Lebels etc jammed into the rafters of old houses and barns. The farmers picked them up with the idea that they had something to sell or protect themselves with if the Allies were turned back.

Its all been there. It doesn't matter if it was used during stressful moments or as a lot of those rifle appear to have never been shot after leaving the factory. The thing is, it doesn't matter a whit. What matters is that you like the firearm and are enjoying it.

Kjohn has the right attitude.

MW how on earth can you deduce the extractor on your RC was at Stalingrad????? The Soviets loaded up convoys and trains full of small arms from all over Europe after the war was over and shipped them all over the Soviet Union as well as China, Korea and many African nations in the throes of rebellion.
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Ever heard of sarcasm?
 
Philthy1 said:
I havent seen any brand new k98's. Must be looking in the wrong places ;) These guns almost all have at least 5,000 rounds down the pipe.....IMHO
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When they first started coming over many of them had pristine bores. Some of them even had what appeared to be original finish on the metal. I don't think they much cared and just disassembled everything they had and did their FTRs. Some of the East German FTRs are beautiful and made on those same receivers. Thing is, the East Germans did their best to keep all of the original parts with matching numbers together. These rifles were FTRed in every soviet satellite all over Europe. It's a toss which of them saw action. It doesn't matter. They are all dripping with history.

One thing I find especially funny is that a mixmaster RC P38 was bringing more money than a vet bring back with better finish and matching numbers. All because someone was sure the RCs had seen action. The vet bringbacks were almost certain to have seen action. Go figure. Hysteria and momentum were the culprits.
 
CanadianAR said:
Nice one.

If the import marking law comes in the RC will disappear as jbmauser and I will buy 2 a month. Hahahahah
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Are they talking about bringing in a import marking law?? Shear stupidity:mad:

I was talking to a US vet a few months back who while in Iraq was there and saw them capture and open a brand new never opened case of german bayonets from ww2. I know I would have gone to great lengths to liberate a few of them!
 
Import markings may be "stupid" but they are part of the social history of the rifles that bear them. Just another page in their book. IMHO the import marks aren't pretty but I wouldn't turn down a nice piece I was looking for because of those markings.
 
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