Type 97 is compact and lightweight as well... Not the greatest for accuracy, but good enough for most needs... Lots of spare parts and inexpensive enough that you don't have to feel bad if it gets abused...with FTU rail from M14.ca, it's still under $1500 and is just fine out to at least 200m...plus they like operate well when dirty and don't mind water and mud too much..you can almost buy 3 for the price of the SL8 and they are one of the easiest rifles to pack due to weight and its overall dimension. I love my Tavors, but they are heavier and are way bulkier..
Bush Rifle with a bad back suggestions?
- Thread starter Moe
- Start date
I'll let him tell you if he wants to. Doesn't really matter much though, facts are he has a bad back and wants something lighter than the SL8 to play with.
I'm sure he already has a doctor telling him how to strengthen his back and suggesting physio.
No limit to my budget, Will spend stupid money on my toys without a care if it is what I want.
I asked AT if they would make one in 22-250 to comply with NB hunting regs. I assume they are too busy as they never got back to me. It was not on their list of options.
No $ limit, Optics will suit the rifles potential. ie bullpups get a dot, a MR1 would het a 1x6 etc.
It don't look like I could get light and accuracy.
If it were a bullpup I think a sling that places the rifle across my chest, Otherwise I don't know but I want to get to it fast if there were a shot I need to take quickly.
My job is one that destroys backs, knees, and necks. I must be careful here what I say as I could be In trouble for running my mouth. I teach people to do the job now and so am subjected to more physical stress than normal as students sometimes don't land so softly. I fly around in the back of helicopters.
He has the best job in the world. Just flying around shooting stuff
Moe, you ever coming back this way for a visit?
It is a good job for sure, pays well, and lets face it, a lot of people would pay dearly for my ride squirting fire from .50 and .30 cal MG. Don't even have words to describe the fun an M134 is.
Yea light gun for sure. I have to stay under .23 due to hunting regs here.
Sadly most guys doing what I do end there career with a gimped up body from the job. If I were to try to do something about it through medical or physio it could mean the end of a career and the unemployment line.
Now as I said yesterday I will list what I was thinking.
Tavor - Bit heavy for a bullpup and Tavor eye scares the crap out of me.
T97 - Ergos suck but lighter and I love the look
Tanfoglio Appeal 22wmr - Light but fugly
Those choices are frowned on by the boss lady she is a shooter too and not thrilled of gun actions going off next to ones head. She suffered a Kaboom once and thinks that would be uber bad with a bullpup. Minus the Appeal as meh how much can a 22wmr kaboom. What she supports the most but can't do either yet is:
AR15 if they get off the prescribed restricted list as many predict.
HK 243 (G36) much lighter version of the SL8 (7lbs). She trusts the name. Only now showing up in Europe and likely be years waiting here for the RCMP to run it through the lab.
I should have started a poll.
Moe
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So how about spending some money on a Armalite 180B-2 and getting lighter then the 6.7Lbs., which is what I found their weight to be empty.
A Skeleton style stock might help, not sure what could be done to improve accuracy, but they are probably under 2MOA to start so maybe MOA is possible.
I also thought of the ACR as it can be built for excellent accuracy as CR5 could attest to, however they aren't a lightweight rifle surprisingly at almost 8Lbs. and up.
Perhaps you could really go all out and have something custom built with an exceptionally light, but accurate carbon fibre wrapped barrel perhaps with lightweight saving tricks used throughout. Spend enough time and money and I bet you could keep it at 6Lbs. with a very lightweight optic.
Since you have the means you just gotta think outside the box and consult some high end custom gun shops known for doing what can't be done, perhaps contacting ATRS again and see what other options besides a MH/MV they may have (of course they are very busy right now).
Cheers D
A Skeleton style stock might help, not sure what could be done to improve accuracy, but they are probably under 2MOA to start so maybe MOA is possible.
I also thought of the ACR as it can be built for excellent accuracy as CR5 could attest to, however they aren't a lightweight rifle surprisingly at almost 8Lbs. and up.
Perhaps you could really go all out and have something custom built with an exceptionally light, but accurate carbon fibre wrapped barrel perhaps with lightweight saving tricks used throughout. Spend enough time and money and I bet you could keep it at 6Lbs. with a very lightweight optic.
Since you have the means you just gotta think outside the box and consult some high end custom gun shops known for doing what can't be done, perhaps contacting ATRS again and see what other options besides a MH/MV they may have (of course they are very busy right now).
Cheers D
The lack of part support for the 180 is concerning. I have also put some thought to the Keltec SU16 but despite there light weight they do have a reputation for cracking at the receiver. Also considering something else although far from a black rifle, the Tikka T3 lite in 223. With that I could retain accuracy and they weigh in only 6.3lbs. Just not the same fun semi's give.
Moe
Moe
I hear you regarding the lesser fun factor of a bolt gun Moe. Saying that, I've recently found myself scanning for a lightweight .223 bolt action rifle.
Why, because a lack of NR status for AR's has me really agitated and when I the NR black rifle choices we have here in Canada I get even more depressed. I know there are a few good rifles, but nothing like what your original post was after; nothing stands out as a clear and certain winner.
Between poor accuracy, suspect reliability/poor design and/or excess weight our quality/accurate/reliable and lightweight NR semi.-auto. black rifle choices are limited indeed.
So I started thinking of a cool looking, reliable, accurate, lightweight and quick handling .223 bolt action rifle with a detachable box magazine (AR compatibility #10 rounders would be okay with me). Preferably with a stock that has a rear vertical hand grip along with a nice rail for optics.
So far nothing with all those option has come to my attention, although those new Ruger .223 Scouts fit some of those requirements.
Back to the semi-auto. rifle plan like the Benelli MR1, AR180b-2 and Tavor which are all decent choices for what you're after (IMO), although I suppose the Bull-pup design is not a favourite (also all the concentrated weight might be an issue with the Tavor and the better half may not even agree to it).
Now everyone's entitled to their own choice, but personally I wouldn't buy a SU-16, XCR, or a T97 as I would rather just might spend to much money making a Ruger Mini-14 accurate instead (I think it could be done, maybe), but that's just me.
I did read a post regarding Wolverine recently and IIRC, they were bringing out a new and improved CZ 858? of sorts and the new designation is a CZ 9xx (sorry it's been a long and sleepless weekend, memory's fading). The rifle had several significant improvements made specifically for our Canadian market with help from Wolverine.
Sorry I can't even remember which calibre's were even available for that CZ 9xx right now, but .223 was one I believe (I know someone will correct me quickly with the right info. if I'm wrong).
An improved rail for optics was added along with a nicer finish and stock improvements along with AR magazine compatibility too. I mention this because 1.5MOA with the right ammo. should be possible and it's relatively lightweight (6Lbs.?).
(sorry I do not have more on this rifle right now, I'll look it up tomorrow if someone doesn't beat me to it).
Leading us back to a bolt gun idea, please post a name/list if you can think of one/any that can fill the need for a lightweight rifle in .223.
Cheers D
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Why, because a lack of NR status for AR's has me really agitated and when I the NR black rifle choices we have here in Canada I get even more depressed. I know there are a few good rifles, but nothing like what your original post was after; nothing stands out as a clear and certain winner.
Between poor accuracy, suspect reliability/poor design and/or excess weight our quality/accurate/reliable and lightweight NR semi.-auto. black rifle choices are limited indeed.
So I started thinking of a cool looking, reliable, accurate, lightweight and quick handling .223 bolt action rifle with a detachable box magazine (AR compatibility #10 rounders would be okay with me). Preferably with a stock that has a rear vertical hand grip along with a nice rail for optics.
So far nothing with all those option has come to my attention, although those new Ruger .223 Scouts fit some of those requirements.
Back to the semi-auto. rifle plan like the Benelli MR1, AR180b-2 and Tavor which are all decent choices for what you're after (IMO), although I suppose the Bull-pup design is not a favourite (also all the concentrated weight might be an issue with the Tavor and the better half may not even agree to it).
Now everyone's entitled to their own choice, but personally I wouldn't buy a SU-16, XCR, or a T97 as I would rather just might spend to much money making a Ruger Mini-14 accurate instead (I think it could be done, maybe), but that's just me.
I did read a post regarding Wolverine recently and IIRC, they were bringing out a new and improved CZ 858? of sorts and the new designation is a CZ 9xx (sorry it's been a long and sleepless weekend, memory's fading). The rifle had several significant improvements made specifically for our Canadian market with help from Wolverine.
Sorry I can't even remember which calibre's were even available for that CZ 9xx right now, but .223 was one I believe (I know someone will correct me quickly with the right info. if I'm wrong).
An improved rail for optics was added along with a nicer finish and stock improvements along with AR magazine compatibility too. I mention this because 1.5MOA with the right ammo. should be possible and it's relatively lightweight (6Lbs.?).
(sorry I do not have more on this rifle right now, I'll look it up tomorrow if someone doesn't beat me to it).
Leading us back to a bolt gun idea, please post a name/list if you can think of one/any that can fill the need for a lightweight rifle in .223.
Cheers D
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If there is no budget and it doesn't have to be a black rifle - look at a Blaser and get something made the way you'd like. Three barrel D99 Drillings could be fun - two rifle barrels and one 20g shotgun. It'll be unique and then you can always wait for maybe the day AR's become NR.
The XCR-L keymod/light bbl comes naked @7.2lbs vs. 8.6lbs for the SL8(yes I looked up the SL8,Google is yer friend)
I'm not about to make any unsubstantiated accuracy claims just yet for the XCR,as I've only had mine for just over 2 weeks this far with a few short "bush range" outings and <200rds down the pipe,and there are plenty of accuracy claims/arguments/naysayers/rebuttals floating around the net already as it is......but first impressions for me personally is I beleive it is indeed capable of sub MOA with the right load.....certainly sub 1.5-2MOA easily which IMHO is plenty accurate for smokin' yoties <300m and quite acceptable(excellent maybe?)for almost any black/battle type platform.
Again,I've only just begun to play with mine,and have made changes to both the optics and iron sights on each of my last 2 outings,but certainly the cold barreled accuracy,the only group that really matters to me as a hunter,is as good as can be expected in my limited experience.....or let's just say it shoots at least as good or better then I'm capable of from sandbags....ie;fired a 5 shot group and printed a 3 leaf clover in the x-ring with 2 "fliers" opening up the group to just under 2".....most likely attributable to operator error.
My XCR with scope,mount,sling and AFG comes in at just over 8.5lbs,or just about equivalent to your naked SL8?
Not sure how you managed to attach an extra 3.5lbs of weight to your SL8,but guessing from your job description,you most likely have easy access to Elcans @2lbs+,plus maybe a bipod and/or some other bulky,non-essential tacticool bowlchit that you don't need to be lugging around on a varmint plinker?
12lbs is just craziness.Assuming you will choose to stick with the Elcan,no matter what platform you decide on,you gotta shed at least 2lbs of other unnecessary junk IMHO?A good quality,comfortable 2pt sling system is likely the best money you could spend given your back issues.
I'm not about to make any unsubstantiated accuracy claims just yet for the XCR,as I've only had mine for just over 2 weeks this far with a few short "bush range" outings and <200rds down the pipe,and there are plenty of accuracy claims/arguments/naysayers/rebuttals floating around the net already as it is......but first impressions for me personally is I beleive it is indeed capable of sub MOA with the right load.....certainly sub 1.5-2MOA easily which IMHO is plenty accurate for smokin' yoties <300m and quite acceptable(excellent maybe?)for almost any black/battle type platform.
Again,I've only just begun to play with mine,and have made changes to both the optics and iron sights on each of my last 2 outings,but certainly the cold barreled accuracy,the only group that really matters to me as a hunter,is as good as can be expected in my limited experience.....or let's just say it shoots at least as good or better then I'm capable of from sandbags....ie;fired a 5 shot group and printed a 3 leaf clover in the x-ring with 2 "fliers" opening up the group to just under 2".....most likely attributable to operator error.
My XCR with scope,mount,sling and AFG comes in at just over 8.5lbs,or just about equivalent to your naked SL8?
Not sure how you managed to attach an extra 3.5lbs of weight to your SL8,but guessing from your job description,you most likely have easy access to Elcans @2lbs+,plus maybe a bipod and/or some other bulky,non-essential tacticool bowlchit that you don't need to be lugging around on a varmint plinker?
12lbs is just craziness.Assuming you will choose to stick with the Elcan,no matter what platform you decide on,you gotta shed at least 2lbs of other unnecessary junk IMHO?A good quality,comfortable 2pt sling system is likely the best money you could spend given your back issues.
07blackwater
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Port Coquitlam, BC
Mini 14 with a shortened match barrel and synthetic stock would be fairly light and accurate.
That's in line with what I was thinking in my previous post, regarding the Mini 14.
Cheers D
You may just find those fliers aren't you, but the natural grouping of the rifle. In the practice of firing many rounds on target you will come to recognize the true potential of your rifles abilities, good or bad. However it does appear that for your purposes the XCR is serving you well.
I believe from all the OP has written the goal would be for a rifle weighing around 7Lbs. including optics of some sort that offers very good accuracy. The tacticool kit you speak of is not needed and likely never was.
Cheers D
While an MR-1 is not exactly lightweight it suits your needs especially if you don't load it down with optics, lights etc.
Just put the sling of your choice on it and shoot away with it's excellent OEM peep sights.
Mine feeds Winchester hollowpoints very reliably.
Just put the sling of your choice on it and shoot away with it's excellent OEM peep sights.
Mine feeds Winchester hollowpoints very reliably.
Yea 12Lbs for an SL8 sounds high. I get it. The SL8 was equipped with a Vortex 6.5x20x44 30mm tube scope, It had the lower(plastic thumbhole) removed and replaced with the much heavier aluminum Hera Arms BCK Gen 2 lower. It had the heavy Bushmaster ACR folding/telescopic stock on it. As they say ounces add up to pounds. Its was indeed 12Lbs as I measured it. Even a bone stock one with glass would be near 10Lbs.
Moe
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Coincidentally,shot head to head today with my XCR vs. my bud's late model stainless Mini-14.....he is envious on all points.
I outshot him for accuracy,and he now lusts for 10-14rd mags.....jest sayn'.
That's strange, the stainless mini-14 I had was an earlier one with a 7 twist barrel and it could barely keep 5 rounds on paper at 100 yards. I sold it and have never thought for one second that I made a mistake getting rid of it.
Your two choices are XCR and Acr. Cut the weight down even further by turning the barrel profile down, say 0.65 ahead gas block and 0.7 to 0.75 behind. You could have done that with the SL8 as well, by copying the g36 bbl profile to drop it to 7.5lbish.
Tavor is not exactly light weight to start at over 8lb bone dry, and the barrel is already super light. There is no weight that can be trimmed there.
Tavor is not exactly light weight to start at over 8lb bone dry, and the barrel is already super light. There is no weight that can be trimmed there.
It would not have taken enough off my SL8 as it also sported a Hear Arms lower that is all aluminum and an ACR stock. Both are quite heavy. I figured at best I would have got the rifle down to 10lbs if I had trimmed the barrel. cr5 and I discussed this option a while back if I was not happy with the rifle's accuracy. As it turned out it was accurate and I never went the barrel lightening route.
I am still debating what would be best for me. It is not just a mater a weight. The way I see it a bullpup with it's shorter OAL and less forward moment when shouldered would be easier on the body than a like weight non bullpup. So many restless nights deciding.
Moe
Turkinator
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Onterrible
Definitely need something light or something with a barrel shroud to lessen the guns perceived weight.
But seriously I love the mini but it is heavy, I wouldn't use it in you situation.
But seriously I love the mini but it is heavy, I wouldn't use it in you situation.
