Hunting sxs

Here is a 20ga Baikal IZ-58 I picked up locally last week. I tried it on sporting clays Sunday and found it shoots great,but the stock is to short for me. It has 26" barrels,choked imp/mod,and weighs Id say about 6 pounds.Its 70's vintage,and remarkably original and minty. Though Baikals don't command big prices,this is one very well balance and sweet handling little shotgun,built on a real 20gauge frame. Ill probably use it for a few trips to the club then sell it on the EE.

IMG_2838_zps5mxmnrur.jpg


IMG_2839_zpsidroezj4.jpg


IMG_2840_zps0fpa23gm.jpg


IMG_2837_zps0susdimt.jpg


IMG_2835_zpsvjgwet0z.jpg
 
If you can find a used Ithaca SKB model 200e....I would recommend it. They are a great upland gun in 20 gauge.

I was just going to say this. If I was after something that WASN'T vintage, it would be the Ithaca/SKB 200.

But because it's me, I'd look a little harder and spend a bit more and find the perfect gun.... a 16 or 20 gauge Sterlingworth.
 
I was just going to say this. If I was after something that WASN'T vintage, it would be the Ithaca/SKB 200.

But because it's me, I'd look a little harder and spend a bit more and find the perfect gun.... a 16 or 20 gauge Sterlingworth.

Recently the Sterlingworth name surfaces in similar discussions.

Educate me Canvasback, is this a British shotgun or were these made in America in the earlier part of the 20th century?

I need a history lesson.
 
Recently the Sterlingworth name surfaces in similar discussions.

Educate me Canvasback, is this a British shotgun or were these made in America in the earlier part of the 20th century?

I need a history lesson.

Well I'll try to keep it short but here goes. The A.H. Fox Company of Philadelphia started out making guns around 1905. Like most American gun companies, the fundamental design was the same at each price point, but the level of fit and finish, quality of wood and engraving would rise as the grades got higher. For example in 1912 Sterlingworth would sell for $35, a Fox A grade would sell for $50 while a F grade would be $515.

By 1910 Fox decided they needed a cheaper, opening price point gun, which they named "The Sterlingworth". Essentially the same gun as their graded guns, but with a simpler forend and even less embellishment than their A grade guns.

Around the same time, Fox also started selling for the first time sub gauge versions of their guns, in 16 and 20. It is the sub gauge Fox guns that many very knowledgeable collectors consider to be the finest gun made in America. The Fox is the only American design the London gun trade consider to be worthy of consideration as competition. Simple and very strong action in a great handling package.

So when you buy a Sterlingworth 16 or 20, you are buying the best gun designed in American. (I know this is subjective). One indicator of this is that in the U.S., when someone wants to drop $5000 to $15000 doing what's called an "upgrade" that typically includes a restock ($2500 min plus the walnut blank that would have been between $700 and $2500) and custom engraving ($5000 plus) they always, always start with a Fox Sterlingworth 16 or 20.

A Sterlingworth in 12 gauge in average, decent condition in Canada should run $500-$700. A Sterlingworth in 16 in similar condition will be double that and then some. I would have no qualms paying up to $2500 for one in the right condition because when compared to any other SxS for comparable money (in comparable condition) the Fox gun comes out ahead.

Typical configurations are extractor guns with 26" or 28" barrels. Ejectors are very rare as are barrel lengths other than what I noted.

One thing to note about Fox guns.....in 1928 the company was sold to Savage Guns and the factory moved from Philadelphia to Utica, NY where Savage was based. It is the common wisdom that Utica guns suffer from cost cutting measures and so are not as well put together as Philly guns. This will usually be reflected in price and demand for an individual gun. Ansley Fox himself left the Company in 1911 and so IMHO, the era of highest quality was at the start, when Ansley ran the place, followed by the rest of the time in Philly and then the Utica era. But having said that, they are all very good guns. I have two Ansley era 12 gauge A grade guns, a late Philly 16 gauge Sterly and a 16 gauge Utica Sterly. The Utica gun should be taking a turkey tomorrow.

Just embarking on complete restorations of both 16 gauge guns. Got one set of barrels back March 31 from being reblued, the other set will get done in a month or two. Currently I'm on the prowl for just the right pair of walnut blanks to use when I restock both guns which hopefully will happen next winter.

Happy to answer any other questions that occur to you.
 
Last edited:
BTW, just wanted to add a little note about a subject that comes up on this forum from time to time. "Hey, I have this old SxS....it must be a collector gun, right??"

The truth is the odds are extremely thin that any of us will just come across a gun that is actually valued and wanted as a "collector". Mostly we have shooters. Here is what I mean by that:

Fox made a total between 1905 and 1940 of about 250,000 guns. Of those, about 28,000 were 16 gauge and 21,000 were 20 gauge. Most of those sub gauge guns were Sterlingworths. So for it to be valued as a collectors, first it needs to be in great and original condition. If it's not great or it's not original, it's not a collector. Second, it needs to be an unusual configuration. Like 30" barrels and ejectors on a 16 or 20. Or 32" barrels on a 12 gauge. Or a high grade (X, D, HE or F). If it's not one of these things it's a shooter. Might be a very nice shooter, but still a shooter.

The example I used is Fox but it's true for all of them. "Old" does not equate to "collectable".
 
BTW, just wanted to add a little note about a subject that comes up on this forum from time to time. "Hey, I have this old SxS....it must be a collector gun, right??"

The truth is the odds are extremely thin that any of us will just come across a gun that is actually valued and wanted as a "collector". Mostly we have shooters. Here is what I mean by that:

Fox made a total between 1905 and 1940 of about 250,000 guns. Of those, about 28,000 were 16 gauge and 21,000 were 20 gauge. Most of those sub gauge guns were Sterlingworths. So for it to be valued as a collectors, first it needs to be in great and original condition. If it's not great or it's not original, it's not a collector. Second, it needs to be an unusual configuration. Like 30" barrels and ejectors on a 16 or 20. Or 32" barrels on a 12 gauge. Or a high grade (X, D, HE or F). If it's not one of these things it's a shooter. Might be a very nice shooter, but still a shooter.

The example I used is Fox but it's true for all of them. "Old" does not equate to "collectable".

Like the guy that got all pissy when we kept trying to tell him that his Parker Trojan was a shooter, plain and simple.
 
Well I haven't been on in a bit but there sure is a wealth of information. I had a fox sterlingworth 12ga that I foolishly sold a few years back. Still miss that gun.... I understand that most of these guns will only be good shooters, which is what I'm looking for, but will shooting steel shot damage them? It would likely only be 4 boxes a year.
 
Well I haven't been on in a bit but there sure is a wealth of information. I had a fox sterlingworth 12ga that I foolishly sold a few years back. Still miss that gun.... I understand that most of these guns will only be good shooters, which is what I'm looking for, but will shooting steel shot damage them? It would likely only be 4 boxes a year.

Depends on how they are choked but likely yes, steel will damage them. It only takes one shell of steel to bulge a barrel. It is NOT cumulative damage.
 
A 16ga. flues is a nice gun, wish I had it. Nonetheless, I shoot a lot of Bismuth out of my sixteens purchased through Bilozir - http://www.bilozir.net/itx.htm

$1500 will go a long way in keeping your flues going.....just a thought.

New guns are nice too!

Best of luck

D.

Small bore Flues are nice and Flues in general are better handling and lighter than most give credit for but there were some deficiencies in fundamental design thus the transition to the NID, which by all accounts is a better gun.

I wouldn't have a 12 Flues but I would a 16 Flues.
 
Small bore Flues are nice and Flues in general are better handling and lighter than most give credit for but there were some deficiencies in fundamental design thus the transition to the NID, which by all accounts is a better gun.

I wouldn't have a 12 Flues but I would a 16 Flues.

I love the 16, and plan on having it freshened up, but the steel shot is still the issue. Around here, waterfowl and upland birds can be found in the same outing. I may look into reloading some double friendly shot, but that is a whole new world for me. Thanks for all the advise
 
A 16ga. flues is a nice gun, wish I had it. Nonetheless, I shoot a lot of Bismuth out of my sixteens purchased through Bilozir - http://www.bilozir.net/itx.htm

$1500 will go a long way in keeping your flues going.....just a thought.

New guns are nice too!

Best of luck

D.

I notice thier SxS 20s and 16s are sold out and currently out of stock.

interesting.....
 
Regarding shooting steel out of your flues, IMHO, that would best be answered by the guys at Doublegun BBS - http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=1&page=1

I'm sure one of the guys there has tried this....and done that....and you'll get a wealth of knowledge about shooting your flues. Let them know how your gun is marked also.

Hope this helps.

D.

This is great advice. The DG forum is a wealth of information and expertise. In fact, the forum, plus the magazine that spawned it, The Double Gun Journal, can take a lot of credit for the renewed interest in classic SxS guns. Certainly they can take credit for dispelling so many of the myths and misinformation that circulated about old guns and barrels for decades.

But as a more regular poster there than I am here, I can assure anyone reading this, they will say what I just said....don't shoot steel out of anything tighter than Modified. In fact, don't shoot steel. And as a corollary to that, don't shoot modern loads of anything with pressure over 8000 psi. Unless you want to crack the stock or blow up the barrels.

The board gets a bit tired of that question as it has been answered so many times. Very often people pose the question, much like when they are asking about whether their gun is a "collector", not so much looking for the real answer as justification for doing what they want to do. And they don't bother to use the search function first.

Modern ammo is not what vintage guns were designed for. So don't shoot modern ammo/loads without either completely understanding the potential impact and the condition of your barrels or getting good advice from those who know. If you want to find out, start researching the subject on DG.

If you want to just go "blam" get a new semi auto or pump and don't worry about it.
 
I have to agree with Canvasback regarding steel or modern pressure loads in vintage doubles. I do not and would not shoot modern, off the shelf, high pressure loads in vintage doubles not designed for it. And 1 1/8 oz target loads are not low pressure loads nor can low brass be considered as low pressure. I definitely would not shoot steel in most vintage guns unless it was a low value gun with thick barrels along the lines of a Stevens 311. With a gun like that I figure I don't have much to loose so it would not bother me if the barrels bulged on a gun like that. But I would open the chokes to modified first. Specifically regarding the flues, no way would I shoot steel or high pressure lead shot loads. As already mentioned, there were issues with the Flues with frames cracking which is one reason the NID was brought out.
 
Back
Top Bottom